Some people also still think the world is flat, despite hundreds of years of evidence to the contrary. But let's not distract from the thread with a side argument.
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How Is It Possible?!?
- Thread starter plangentmusic
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Some people also still think the world is flat, despite hundreds of years of evidence to the contrary. But let's not distract from the thread with a side argument.
Bryan R. Tyler
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Extremely cheap parts, extremely cheap labor, not having to pay any business costs for the product to be made, and the ability to sell thousands of these a month allows them to keep the prices very low. Get rid of any one of these and the thing you call mark up becomes necessity in order to have a sustainable income on a product.
It makes me sad when I hear people on TB complaining about the high prices on boutique instruments- they obviously haven't taken the time to think of all that goes into running a sustainable small business in the US. Most of those master luthiers who have decades of woodcrafting experience are pulling in less than $15 an hour.
It's the essence of mass production - components bought wholesale en masse and assembled with as much labor-saving machinery as possible by minimally skilled workers.
Go figure out the retail price if you were to buy every piece of your car separately and assembled it yourself. It would cost you ten times what you get for a vehicle off the assembly line.
There's also another factor; I doubt the retailers make much profit on these starter packs. They are exactly that -- starters. The gamble is that a certain percentage of the customers who buy them will get hooked on music and come back to buy higher-end gear.
Go figure out the retail price if you were to buy every piece of your car separately and assembled it yourself. It would cost you ten times what you get for a vehicle off the assembly line.
There's also another factor; I doubt the retailers make much profit on these starter packs. They are exactly that -- starters. The gamble is that a certain percentage of the customers who buy them will get hooked on music and come back to buy higher-end gear.
That can be said about any small business. Someone can work and save their whole life to open a little hardware store and then 2 months later a Wallmart comes along and has a bigger selection at better prices. But what's the answer? Spend more to keep someone else in business?
And yes, I'm fully aware that it doesn't cost much for those parts and they don;t expect a big profit, but, again -- it shows that making a decent instrument these days doesn't really cost a whole lot. If they can build an Affinity for 50 bucks, they can build a custom shop for $300.00
Bryan R. Tyler
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Not an adequate analogy as the hardware store is purchasing someone else's products and merely reselling them, not creating them. An adequate analogy would be an artist selling his paintings from a shop and Wal-Mart moving in and selling mass-produced paintings made by machines for $19.95. And to the folks just looking for a painting to match their couch, they're fine. To assume that because their both simply paintings and comparable on the level of price alone (along with the "matches the couch" factor) because of this though is ignorant to say the least.
The whole idea of a custom shop is that you're getting an experienced craftsman working in the US to do the work with quality materials and acute sense of detail. Paying him a meager $12 an hour wouldn't cover your $300 limit. And that's not including parts, insurance and maintenance costs, machinery and tools, rent/mortgage, advertising, average sales, and profit margin, all of which need to be figured into each instrument to maintain a business. Fender can afford to lower the price on their custom shop basses quite a bit due to their standing in the market, but nowhere near what you think. Boutique builders can't even do that.
I see your point but cannot agree 100%. I don't see it as art. It's a craft. (Unless you want a bass that's an exotic shape and wood, etc). An electric bass isn't a Boesendorfer piano.
And the analogy of the hardware store still applies. If it's the same end result, why pay more?
As for the painting comparison, it can go either way. Sometimes people DO want something that matches the couch. It's just decoration. That doesn't make them ignorant. And just because a painting is an original doesn't mean it's more pleasant for that purpose -- just as a hand made bass isn't necessarily better suited for someone's musical needs. A stock $800 P is often preferable to a $8000 customized Alembic.
Bryan R. Tyler
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Basses are also not priced like Bosendorfers. Regardless, viewing it as art or craft (if you even view a difference between the two) is up to the purchaser, and has no universal definition. The design and though that goes into creating a lot of basses is pure art to me. Neither of our opinions matter though unless we are purchasing said instruments.
It's not applicable, because the hardware analogy implies both parties are simply repackaging other peoples' good, and the bigger retailer can sell them for less. Neither party is creating anything. It's surprising that you don't see the difference as a professional musician. That's like comparing a live show in a club to simply popping in a tape for the audience. If you think the end result is the same just because you're ending up with music, then that's fine for you, but it would take a real strain to try to make a logical connection between the two.
The ignorance would come from thinking that it's the same thing as the professionally made work of art simply because they both fit a very narrow-minded criteria. If I want my drink colder, I could put an ice cube in there, or I could put a miniature ice sculpture that took 20 hours and years of experience to create it in there. Both will get my drink cold. Assuming they are equivalent because they match my narrow criteria would be an error.
That would be comparing apples to oranges then. Why purchase anything that doesn't fit your required criteria? If the two items are comparable yet your criteria is still limited, then you likely don't need the more expensive option. Confusing them for being the same simply because both match your criteria is foolish though. The more expensive item shouldn't cost less simply because the less expensive item fulfills some of the same purposes. It's priced for its inherent value, both from creative value and material/business value. The less expensive item has no bearing on its price. Drop the price of the expensive handmade item to try to compete with the less expensive mass-produced item, and you'll be working harder for less money until you finally go out of business.
There is no such thing as inherent value.
Whether it cost a nickel to make, or $1,000,000 to make - it's value is only what someone will give in exchange for it.
Well, I guess we don;t agree on the analogies. Live music and a D.J. is NOT the same product. A hand built bass and an assembly line bass that does the same thing IS.
And there's NEVER a reason for an Almbic. If that's what you want, great. But it's not like anyone will be missing out on a section of work because they don;t have a hand built bass. in fact, in most studio situations, the engineer and/or producer would prefer a stock instrument to a customized one.
Bryan R. Tyler
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The live music vs. DJ thing was to show the fault in the big store vs small store compared to big store vs artisan analogies. An apt analogy for assembly line vs hand built in that circumstance would be seeing a really good U2 cover band vs seeing U2 themselves. You'll get the same songs in the end, but the differences between the two may or may not be worth a lot of extra money depending on who's paying.
Agreed. There's almost never a requirement for instruments like that, or any artist made artworks, houses, etc. It's just what you prefer to let you be at your best, or at least happiest. The only exceptions would be those pieces that do require a Bosendorfer piano, or to cop a Moog Taurus sound, etc. Niche things that won't apply to most as far as requirements go.
Bryan R. Tyler
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Inherent value is the value you place in it. Whether someone's willing to offer you a nickel or $1,000,000 to make it, there is a value to the piece that you have assigned to it. It's like saying "my work is worth XXX much". Whether someone is willing to pay it has no bearing on the value it is worth to you.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
($1 to Princess Bride)
inherent: existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element.
Bryan R. Tyler
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Yes. Inherent. It is worth x amount of dollars to me- no opinion outside will change this permanent and inseparable element. A value that is not altered by outside elements. It is also a value that may mean nothing at all to the market. It is not inherent to them. Inherent does not mean an accepted truth to everyone.
It's a bit of a semantic/philosophical issue, but i would generally consider that intrinsic as opposed to inherent value.
Inherent to me mean "inherent to the valued item" - i.e. the ITEM carries an inherent value, separate from the evaluator.
Bryan R. Tyler
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I don't think that works out in the end though. Take anyone's idea of what is inherent to everyone ("people are inherently good", or "it is an inherent truth that all men are created equal" for example) and you'll find other people who disagree, which would negate that value that should be universal. I don't think there's anything that can be universally agreed upon to where you can apply your definition of "inherent" and make it stick.
Inherent implies the value exists even without an evaluator.
For example in "people are inherently good" the implication is "whether or not any person sees that value, it exists". It doesn't require universal agreement BECAUSE it's inherent, in fact even if everyone denied the value it wouldn't change the value.
As for how it is possible, a couple of factors:
- economies of scale
- slave labor (or a functional equivalent)
- few, if any, environmental laws
- incredibly low cost of manufacturing (see 1-3)
But hey, look at all the money we saved buying it!
- economies of scale
- slave labor (or a functional equivalent)
- few, if any, environmental laws
- incredibly low cost of manufacturing (see 1-3)
But hey, look at all the money we saved buying it!
2 cents:
I would define 'inherent value' as the actual cost of the materials used and labour expended to produce any given item. Overhead and business expenses should fall outside of this equation.
For example: it cost exactly $26.72 in material and labour to produce a hypothetical piece of merchandise. That should be considered it's inherent value, IMO.
I would define 'inherent value' as the actual cost of the materials used and labour expended to produce any given item. Overhead and business expenses should fall outside of this equation.
For example: it cost exactly $26.72 in material and labour to produce a hypothetical piece of merchandise. That should be considered it's inherent value, IMO.
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I would argue it to an extent, but that's for another thread.
That's actually a really interesting topic. Much of classical physics is derived from our earthly inertial frame of reference. The fact that the earth's radius is many orders of magnitude larger than the typical human height means that the earth's radius is essentially negligible (much in the way that we consider even velocities of 100 m/s to be non-relativistic). Flat earth? On the scale applicable to most of our daily lives, science would agree that the theory is just fine.
The flat earth belief was not nearly as widespread as history wishes us to believe. The ancient Nordic culture believed the earth was a tree - round, but not spherical. The ancient Greeks concluded that it was a sphere, and even throughout the Dark Ages, the spherical earth belief was the norm.
There aren't very many who believe in a flat earth, and those that do are generally outspoken individuals from the Flat Earth Society. They're also generally very religious folks who tend to cite the Bible for various proof. (Note that correlation does not imply causation here, and that being religious does not imply that you believe in a flat earth.)
Then there's the slightly misunderstood idea that the universe is only a 3-dimensional projection of a 2-dimensional universe, but fully understanding it does require some idea of string theory. If proven (there's an experiment in the works now with an accurate clock and an interferometer), that could completely revive the flat earth belief, and serve as empirical evidence.
The flat earth belief today is virtually null. The next debate we should be focusing on is about the existence of gravity in our universe.
