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How light is too light? (Neck dive)

RedHotFuzz

RedHotFuzz

Mar 16, 2014
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1,604
#1
Getting ready for my 2nd Warmoth build. My first one (P/J) turned out great, but even at 8.5 lbs it gets a little tiresome on the shoulder during long practice sessions. I stand when I practice because I sit for work all day.

I'd like to try to get something in the 7.5 lb range. But I wonder at what body weight will neck dive become an issue? It will be a medium scale (32") neck in roasted maple. Warmoth claims roasted maple to be lighter in weight than standard maple. I will also use lightweight tuners. I know short scale would help minimize neck dive, but I've decided I'm a medium scale guy and would like to stick with that length, particularly with my primary practice bass.

I'm thinking about a body in the sub-4-lb range. No pick guard, two knobs. One pickup. I was looking at the Lace Bass Bar, which is ultra lightweight (2.2 oz). But I'm worried if I get too light in the body I might end up with a neck diver. Do you see that danger with this setup? I might also consider a single Darkstar, which is 6.5 oz per Curtis Novak. That's a quarter pound more than the Lace pup, not an insignificant difference. But if that additional pickup weight will help balance the body and neck, it's worth a serious look.

Thoughts?
 
#2
Well, as I've said on other threads, it depends on your definition of neck dive. What Warmoth body are you going to use? Because, obviously, the further out you can get the front strap button, the less likely there will be any dive problems. I'm sure you already know that, though. But, honestly, it sounds like you've pretty much covered all the bases. At worst, IMO it might be a little neck heavy with the Lace pickup - like, say, a Hofner 500/1 - but nowhere near what I would consider a neck diver. My Kramer 450B, which will pull your shirttail out of your pants, and over your head all by itself? That's a neck diver..:rollno: And yeah, roasted maple might be slightly lighter, since all the moisture and sugars (??) are supposedly cooked out of it. Are you using it for the whole neck, or just the fretboard?:)
 
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#3
GIBrat51 said:
Well, as I've said on other threads, it depends on your definition of neck dive. What Warmoth body are you going to use? Because, obviously, the further out you can get the front strap button, the less likely there will be any dive problems.
Click to expand...

Oops, yeah, sorry - that's a critical piece of info. Short-scale P body.

GIBrat51 said:
Are you using it for the whole neck, or just the fretboard?:)
Click to expand...

Roasted maple for the whole neck. Unfinished.
 
#8
I doubt there's any way of knowing for sure. I have a 34" P, potentially sub-8lbs (maybe 8 exactly) that doesn't dive at all, though. With standard Squier tuners

There's always the option of adding a higher mass bridge if there is dive, and I've even heard of people adding weight to the end of a strap for balance. As far as I'm concerned, it's a lot easier to add weight if its too light, than to remove weight if it's too heavy
 
#9
RedHotFuzz said:
Getting ready for my 2nd Warmoth build. My first one (P/J) turned out great, but even at 8.5 lbs it gets a little tiresome on the shoulder during long practice sessions. I stand when I practice because I sit for work all day.

I'd like to try to get something in the 7.5 lb range. But I wonder at what body weight will neck dive become an issue? It will be a medium scale (32") neck in roasted maple. Warmoth claims roasted maple to be lighter in weight than standard maple. I will also use lightweight tuners. I know short scale would help minimize neck dive, but I've decided I'm a medium scale guy and would like to stick with that length, particularly with my primary practice bass.

I'm thinking about a body in the sub-4-lb range. No pick guard, two knobs. One pickup. I was looking at the Lace Bass Bar, which is ultra lightweight (2.2 oz). But I'm worried if I get too light in the body I might end up with a neck diver. Do you see that danger with this setup? I might also consider a single Darkstar, which is 6.5 oz per Curtis Novak. That's a quarter pound more than the Lace pup, not an insignificant difference. But if that additional pickup weight will help balance the body and neck, it's worth a serious look.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Hey Fuzz

Glad to hear another project might be in the works. Very cool! I am very jealous of the idea of a roasted maple neck. Make sure they pick out a nice one for you and see if you can talk them into sending you photos of a few wood choices - if they are making the neck up special for you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they don't but it doesn't hurt to ask. The wenge unfinished neck on my Drake semi hollow is one of my faves. It feels so good grabbing that tree with no finish, very gratifying - it's really organic - it grounds me.

I will say this - my Urge is 7.4 lbs and the body is downsized considerably and to me is a bit of an awkward shape. For that reason it may not be a completely fair evaluation, but here is the deal. It hangs on me in normal playing position standing, but doesn't balance right on my lap sitting down. Definitely dives a bit sitting down. Go figure. Weird deal for sure, but a lot of it is the body shape and where the bottom body curve rests on your leg.

Hamm Sideways.png


There is an element of crap shoot involved and certainly no guarantees, but if you are really a "stand-up" guy most of the time as you say, I wouldn't be overly concerned with a medium scale neck getting in the region of 7.5 lbs.
 
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#10
RedHotFuzz said:
Oops, yeah, sorry - that's a critical piece of info. Short-scale P body. Roasted maple for the whole neck. Unfinished.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I would have thought roasted maple would be a little too brittle for a neck - but what do I know? I still think that, at worst, the new bass will be on the order of a Hofner 500/1. And yeah, the Kramer would be real funny-if it wasn't true. It didn't actually get my shirt over my head, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Your new bass can't possibly be that bad.:)
 
#12
voice of experience here with more things to try:

keep the pickup(s) light--go for a brass bridge if you want to add weight to the body.
move the bottom strap button up an inch or two (like some Spectors).
use a longer screw and a spacer on the horn strap button--extend it as far as feasible.
the 2+2 headstock will also help-keep the headstock as short as possible.

the little differences add up.
 
#14
Try a new strap made of soft glove leather. My Jack Casady bass has serious neck dive and I purchased a 3" strap made by Franklin at the local Guitar Center and it's coarse underside sticks to your shirt and pretty much eliminates neck dive. I have no problem with it now. :):cool::bassist:
 
#15
yodedude2 said:
voice of experience here with more things to try:

keep the pickup(s) light--go for a brass bridge if you want to add weight to the body.
move the bottom strap button up an inch or two (like some Spectors).
use a longer screw and a spacer on the horn strap button--extend it as far as feasible.
the 2+2 headstock will also help-keep the headstock as short as possible.

the little differences add up.
Click to expand...

So much this^

On my SS Jag, I needed to move the lower button, install ultra light tuners and use a seriously wide strap. Now it's great.
 
#16
If you're going with a "Fender/G&L/Music Man" headstock, I'd go with the 3+1 look (assuming you're going with a 4-string, not 5-string), 'cause a 2+2 would look too weird on a Fendery-ish headstock.

What's the body wood?

Given the current parameters, I'd tempt fate and go with Paulownia body and make it as light, overall, as possible. If it dives, then implement Yodedude's strap extension, brass bridge etc.
 
#17
Scale does not matter but the weight center position which is defined by the way the strap is attached to the bass. Many long and extra long scale basses are not overall longer than the regular scale ones', just the bridge is placed closer to the edge of the body and scale is just re-distributed across the same length of the bass. In your case the longer the upper horn is the less chances your bass will neck-dive.
 
#18
Great advice from everyone, thanks. I'm hoping to make the right decisions in the pre-selection stage that I won't have to worry about fixing balance issues with super-wide straps or extended strap buttons.

I do prefer the look of an inline 4 headstock (especially on a P-style body), so I'll probably try that first. If balance ends up being out of whack, I guess I could return the neck to Warmoth and try a 2+2 headstock instead. I'm not a huge fan of Warmoth's short scale tiltback headstock shape.
 
#19
You can always add weight to the control cavity to balance it out.

I always go as light as I can find. (Partly, because I think I remember reading someone discussing Jaco's BOfD and they noted that it was one of the lightest basses they had every handled... can't remember where I read it or even if I am sure that I actually read it at all, maybe I just dreamed it.)

Anyway, testable verifiable hypothesis or hallucination,.... lightest body available has always worked for me.
 
#20
MVE said:
You can always add weight to the control cavity to balance it out.
Click to expand...

I thought the same thing. Then I realized I'd be bummed if I went with a lightweight pup (Lace) chosen merely for its weight and then ended up having to load the control cavity up with lead (or whatever) to get the balance right when I could have just gone with a heavier Darkstar pup instead (which, admittedly, is quite a bit more expensive than the Lace option).
 

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