How many watts do I really need?

[georgestrings]

Balanced levels on stage could be blowing the room away, or just right for the room, but needing PA support here and there, depending on the overall volume and the size of the room and audience.

I think you live in a different world, where stages are big and audiences are 300+ all the time. Us bottom feeders have to deal with the stage being too loud nearly all the time. Now you tell me I don't know what I'm doing, again with the insult slap down.

A band that is cooking on stage can easily be bass mud out front and there's nothing anyone can do about that from the FOH except turn off the bass in the PA.

What can I tell you - over 30 years experience as a gigging musician has taught me that it's counterproductive to rehearse differently than you gig... and any band I've ever played in strived to balance our backline levels - which ALWAYS starts with the drummer... Now, how is a band to rehearse with the bass buried below the drums??? I've played enough gigs in enough different settings to know that the bass doesn't have to be turned way down to get a good overall sound out front - and to suggest differently reveals a lack of ability and/or experience in the soundman, IME/IMO...


- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

Great thread (no, really).

My perspective: I've played in some loud bands, and currently play with a very heavy-handed drummer. I need more power and cabinets when we practice than I do for a gig. When we play shows, the clubs have PA systems, good ones, and our stage volume is what I'd call 'reasonable', given that we tend toward heavy genres. For gigs, I use a single 212, powered with ~ 425 watts, and have no problems.

Rehearsals, though, I need every inch of the four 12s I use and every watt the amp can muster...

For the OP: Only you can decide what will work for you, and such decisions often come through combinations of trial and error. As you can see, asking other bassists yields a plethora of answers, but there isn't often any one right way to do these things. Enjoy the journey (and wear hearing protection)!

Yeah, one thing that can cause that is if the stage setting allows you to distance yourself a little farther from the drummer than your rehearsal space will allow... Another would be room acoustics in your rehearsal space - it's not unheard of to sometimes gig at lower volumes than you rehearse at... We started using a drum riser at our rehearsal space a couple of years ago, and that really helps me gain distance - especially from the cymbals...


- georgestrings

 

[obimark]

You guys must be in some really LOUD bands with guitards and drummers beating theire drums like Ike whomping on Tina!!

I played my last gig at a 70 person bar with (1) TC BG 250, and I NEVER turned it above 5 on volume. Plenty Loud. Walked to the back with wireless about 6o feet back from stage, my bass was actually louder back there- NO PA at all for bass, only vocals.

your bass will be louder when you get at least 5-6 feet in front of your amp...

 

[will33]

We started using a drum riser at our rehearsal space a couple of years ago, and that really helps me gain distance - especially from the cymbals...


- georgestrings

You must be an extremely short fellow.

 

[SirMjac28]

At least a thousand watts that way you have everything covered forever.

 

[IPYF]

Yeah. A big thing that people don't consider is their room when considering volume. I'm badly unlucky at my rehearsal studio because the manager has fitted bass traps to the corners because clients were complaining that the rooms were too boomy.

Now the room is super sterile and 60% of the volume of the bass amp is trapped in the lower corners of the room. It's not a bad sound but I'm always really surprised when I take my rig to a big open bar and discover just how fking air it's actually throwing.

 

[Downunderwonder]

What can I tell you - over 30 years experience as a gigging musician has taught me that it's counterproductive to rehearse differently than you gig... and any band I've ever played in strived to balance our backline levels - which ALWAYS starts with the drummer... Now, how is a band to rehearse with the bass buried below the drums??? I've played enough gigs in enough different settings to know that the bass doesn't have to be turned way down to get a good overall sound out front - and to suggest differently reveals a lack of ability and/or experience in the soundman, IME/IMO...


- georgestrings

The bit in bold says you don't take direction from any soundman that wants you to turn down any, ever, end of story.

I know what is possible and not possible in my smaller venues. Simply it isn't possible to reinforce bass that is loud without going to a whole new level of loud that we don't need because it would blow the roof off and literally drive everyone out.

The bass rig carries the room in these situations but lacks. If a little FOH bass is added it turns to mud. If the stage bass was turned down to monitor level we could have FOH bass that would kill, never happens.

To suggest you can play at any volume you feel like in any venue, so long as it's sounding good on stage, suggests you only experience the big stage and incredibly rowdy backline gigs. Rock on.

 

[sratas]

I do not want to participate to the debate carried by "down" and "george", in fact I have not understood or took the time to read it, I want only to give my contribution to the OP question:

My experience, very limited. I gig rarely but when I did I found that:
at the beginning we tried to carry the room with my amp only in order to reserve the FOH system (low budget-quality-power almost everytime) to critical instruments like harp, acoustic guitars, voices and so on and protect my perfect tone . Every time we tried to do so IN A (little to medium) ROOM (outdoors has proven to be a totally different thing) the bass volume on stage, that usually origins by the bass amp placed near the drummer in the back of the stage itself, was outrageously loud and was making the stage earth-quaking. The people in the crowd were able to have a distinct bass tone, but on stage the band was smashed by my volume, and was I.
So...the better way was using a monitor-like volume for the stage and going to FOH for the room. This has been a compromise for tone? Not...I always help actively the soundguy, who, in fact, almost always is not a professional and doesn't know what to do with Eq etc.
On stage the volume is dictated by the drummer, if he is heavy handed the stage volume will be louder...in a room the drums rule. In my last gig the audience commented how loud and annoying was the snare sound up front, and the drums were the only instrument that was not amplified...
Big rooms-outdoors: I have used no FOH, my amp only hammering at full capabiity (imagine the mighty streamliner 900 to limiter peak power into two 2x10 Bergs) and both the stage and the audience were good, another story.

To te OP: if you just want a stage monitor for your tone, even a 200 watt amp can suffice. Only a rule: use a modular system and use as many cabs as you need ( speakers do matter vastly!). In many cases, with disciplined bandmates, you will only need one.
Do you have fool drummer and two lead guitars with full stacks with all controls to 12? You have to solve this before thinking to your instrument, because this is always a problem, no matter were you rehearse and gig.
I'm saying this and I'm a guitard, have been for 25 years, with full job as lead, but never forgot the music when setting my amp...and my mates loved my volume and tone ( well, sometimes...)

 

[Arjank]

any band I've ever played in strived to balance our backline levels - which ALWAYS starts with the drummer... Now, how is a band to rehearse with the bass buried below the drums??? I've played enough gigs in enough different settings to know that the bass doesn't have to be turned way down to get a good overall sound out front - and to suggest differently reveals a lack of ability and/or experience in the soundman, IME/IMO...

- georgestrings

A big +1

The drummer really sets the level.
I ones played in a rock/pop/funk band and that drummer wasvery loud, he could not play well without hitting hard. I really needed my poweramp back then to keep up (well, I did not have the cab I have today).
I also played in a jazz/funk band with two drummers, these guys could really play and the overall volume was very pleasant, every musician could hear himself well. I had my 4x8 cab back then and I think I only needed like 150-300watts to keep up.

 

[One Drop]

I don't understand how you can play below the level of the drummer, whatever the soundman wants.

It's not the biggest deal to get good FOH while the stage volume is balanced if a bit high to match a heavy handed drummer. It's still a moot point if you can't hear yourself on stage though, a soundman should be able to deal with realistic scenarios.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Getting realistic is what bands often need to do.

Playing to the level of the drummer is a joke. Just because the PA can put a big bass drum into the mix doesn't mean he can smash the rest of the kit with no regard. The vocals must come through clean and clear.

I've mixed bands where the punters come up to me and complain they can't hear the vocals. I point to the sliders, vocals and kick only left in the mix. Get real people.

 

[lomo]

I've mixed bands where the punters come up to me and complain they can't hear the vocals. I point to the sliders, vocals and kick only left in the mix. Get real people.

We encounter this frequently, simply because our drummer can't seem to play at low volume. In a small to medium bar (90% of our gigs) we mic only vocals and maybe a touch of kick, and it's hard to get the vocals through in the predominant way they should. On stage we play loud enough to be heard and hear ourselves...........above the hammering

I'd love to get him a shield.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I don't understand how you can play below the level of the drummer, whatever the soundman wants.

It's not the biggest deal to get good FOH while the stage volume is balanced if a bit high to match a heavy handed drummer. It's still a moot point if you can't hear yourself on stage though, a soundman should be able to deal with realistic scenarios.

Bass and drums should both be occupying their own properly assigned sonic territories, then balanced to complement each other's presence.

All instrument EQ and volume parameters should complement that of the vocalists...they get priority.

Riis

 

[Downunderwonder]

The drummers blame the guitarists and vice versa.

 

[georgestrings]

I don't understand how you can play below the level of the drummer, whatever the soundman wants.

It's not the biggest deal to get good FOH while the stage volume is balanced if a bit high to match a heavy handed drummer. It's still a moot point if you can't hear yourself on stage though, a soundman should be able to deal with realistic scenarios.

Exactly - I need to be able to atleast hear what I'm playing in order to play well, and my *needs* as a player take priority over the *wants* of the soundman - end of story... I've literally played several thousand paying gigs, and know from experience that I can match levels with the drums without destroying the mix out front - regardless of the claims of some here...

There have been a few times where I've been asked to either turn down or cut some lows to help the overall mix, and I'll try to accomodate that as much as possible, *if* it's a valid request - what I won't do, is turn down to the point of not being able to hear myself well enough to put in a good performance - no matter what the soundman wants... I use wireless at pretty much every gig, and always get out front to see how things sound - I honestly don't give a crap about "carrying the room" - I just want to sound good on stage, then figure it's up to the soundman to take things from there...


- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

Getting realistic is what bands often need to do.

Playing to the level of the drummer is a joke. Just because the PA can put a big bass drum into the mix doesn't mean he can smash the rest of the kit with no regard. The vocals must come through clean and clear.

I've mixed bands where the punters come up to me and complain they can't hear the vocals. I point to the sliders, vocals and kick only left in the mix. Get real people.

Truthfully, it sounds like the place you're attempting to mix at is either too small for live music, or the PA is woefully inadequate... I agree that vocals must come thru "clean and clear", but do not agree that "playing to the level of the drummer is a joke" - and never will agree to that...

Let's put it this way - if we can balance our levels in our rehearsal space, and still hear vocals properly thru our monitors, there is no valid reason why those same levels won't work at a gig... and those are the levels we need to play at to function well as a band...


- georgestrings

 

[foxbass58]

To the OP, as many watts as it takes to thoroughly drown out the guitar.... if you so desire.
Once the ego playing it realises he's comprehensively outclassed, the guitar wars syndrome calms down a little.
I've heard every excuse in the book about how he "has to be this loud" to get his sound. I have discovered that in most cases its because he's made himself prematurely deaf with his own volume.
Drummers, bless them, can only be dampened by taking their toys away or requiring they play in a separate room.
I've tried being on the other end - ie, sound engineer and wouldn't have their job for any money. I've met saints and a*holes aplenty there too.

Sadly I've come to realize it takes approx 1,200 watts of bass to balance out some near deaf ego with his 30 watt 1x10 spiteful combo cranked up to 11.

Now where's the fairness in that? The expense alone makes me weep.

In rehearsal situations I like to have my rig face me so I can hear fine. If the others are having trouble hearing me then its their choice to turn down.

I too check my venue volume with wireless gear and find every room radically different. Bass can occasionally need to be opressively loud on stage to be good in the room mix.
I hate having to play like that and would prefer that I can't be heard over deafening myself.:scowl::scowl:

 

[MJ_Sotti]

1100

 

[Jools4001]

Getting realistic is what bands often need to do.

Playing to the level of the drummer is a joke. Just because the PA can put a big bass drum into the mix doesn't mean he can smash the rest of the kit with no regard. The vocals must come through clean and clear.

Absolutely + Loads !!!

It always amazes me when people and bands I've been in insist on playing to the level of the drummer. It is absolute rubbish.

It is really very simple:

1. The audience wants to hear the vocal lines clearly - melody, harmony and lyrics. They don't want to hear a drum solo (or anything else overpowering the vocals).
2. A singer is only physically capable of singing at a certain volume without screaming themselves hoarse or wrecking their voice - some singers can belt it out, others can't, but even the belters would have trouble singing unaided over a loud drummer - so PA support is needed.
3. With any PA, in any given room, there is a limit to how much volume you can crank out of it before it will break into uncontrollable feedback OR if you have a well tuned concert PA in a big room where feedback is not a problem, you may actually hit the pain threshold first. Whatever, if you hit the feedback or the pain threshold, you are going to want to back off the PA volume a bit to avoid either
4. Once you're at the threshold of how loud the PA can go, and once the singer is singing at the top of his voice THAT IS THE MAXIMUM VOLUME YOUR VOCALS CAN BE
5. Everything else has to balance to that - if this means that the drums need to be fully mic'ed and the PA needs subwoofers to bring the drums up to a level where they can support the vocals then fine, but in many, many small bar gigs (which I guess is what most of us do), it's still possible for the drums to be louder acoustically than the maximum vocal volume you can coax from the PA - even when all the room tuning and EQ's are optimised. In that case the drummer just has to player quieter

Back to the OP. You don't hear watts, you hear sound pressure level (spl - which is measured in decibels). So to mix with other musicians you need to make sure that the spl that your rig is capable of producing can hang with everyone else's stuff. You will also want to make sure that you can produce the spl you need with plenty to spare (headroom), so that you can hang with the band without your rig being driven absolutely flat out. For bass frequencies, you need to move a lot of air to generate high spl and this is what your speakers are for - moving air as they vibrate to and fro. For your speaker cab to move lots of air they will either need speaker drivers with a big surface area to push against that air, or have drivers that are able to move in and out a long way (excursion) - or maybe drivers that have both of these attributes. You can also move a lot of air by having drivers with a smaller surface area or smaller excursion but use more of them. Bass cabinets that are currently on the market have every permutation of driver size, configuration, number of drivers that you could think of and depending upon their design and the drivers they use they will be more or less efficient.

While it will take power (measured in watts) to drive the speakers back and forth, no speaker system is 100% efficient, so for every watt that is fed into the cab a proportion of the energy will produce sound, the rest will be used up as heat. So having a more efficient cab will result in more spl for a given amount of power going into it.

To cut a long story short, you can get the sound pressure level you need by driving very efficient speakers with relatively little power, or dump big power into less efficient speakers or lots of them. Or use big power into lots of efficient speakers and set off Tsunami warnings.

Every different method of achieving high spl has it's own passionate champions and the arguements over which is best will continue for as long as there are bass players

 

[Dbassmon]

In situations where you have great musicians, volume is always varied and the drummer usually controls the ceiling and floor (how loud and soft the band gets) We call this dynamics.

I most bands amateur bands dynamics it not a primary concern.... bashing at one volume on every tune. We have all seen this hundreds of time.

As far as how much power does a bass player need is a question that depends on many factors.
What style of music?
What sound are you going after?
What speakers are you using and how efficient/inefficient are they? What Ohms are they rated at.
How loud is the stage?

In my opinion, bass can not have too much power. Even at low volume levels, an amp with plenty of power will sound better than a smaller amp. Bass transients require lots of energy. The snap of a string or the initial finger attack will either be faithfully reproduced if the amp has enough power or compressed or clipped if the amp chokes.

If your sound is crunchy and compressed, you may love the effect of an amp running out of power and giving you some crunch and compression.

If you want a hi-fi sound with sparkle and big low end, more power will serve you.

Regardless, there is always other considerations. Money, weight and size are often considerations when deciding what rig to get.

I use 900watts into 4ohms and 2 12" for most gigs. It works well for every genre and moderately robust volumes. I still see the compression light come on when I slap or really dig in.