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Double Bass How many years did you study before jazz was consistently fun?

Tom Lane

Gold Supporting Member
Apr 28, 2011
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Southwest Los Angeles, CA, USA
Jamey Aebersold is famous for saying that playing jazz didn't become fun for him until he turned 50. I don't know for sure but I think he probably started studying jazz in his mid to late teen years, so that's 30 to 35 years of drudgery before the fun began. How about you? Were you already proficient on your instrument before you started studying jazz? What was the last thing that "clicked" for you?
 
I had fun from day -20. I was a guitar player at the time taking a class with Mimi Fox. Owned an electric bass for a short time but never did anything with it. She turned me on to playing basslines to comp for another guitarist and I've been hooked ever since. 6 months later I owned a DB and sold most of my guitar gear or donated it away.

It's all about having fun and making the most out of every little bit you learn. If you fear mistakes, you will be forever miserable. Waiting til you're 50 to have fun... seems like something went wrong there but we do have a lot of thank Jamey for.

The last thing that clicked?

The wisdom that the body has a crazy ability to correct itself, if given the right approach. Learning to take advantage of that is the trick and lately leading to feeling much comfortable soloing at brighter tempos.
 
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I had fun right from the beginning, in every style and on every instrument I've ever played. I'm a proponent of the old quote "Wisdom begins in wonder", and playing an instrument is always fascinating and wonderful. I wasn't very proficient on any of the instruments when i started playing jazz.

Now if the question had been when did I stop being scared to step on the stage with much better players, that only happened recently, and there are a few out there that might still give me the occasional weak knee. But in those situations, I think it's more about "fake it 'til you make it and then hope for the best". Which is also kinda fun.
 
Jazz was fun to listen to before I played it. The joy reached me.

Jazz was fun to play from day one. Music offers a lot of opportunities to tell someone else's story your way, but jazz provides a chance to our own stories without words. I didn't have to sing, I didn't have to dance, I didn't have to talk, but I could be myself and people dug it.
 
'Having fun' is more about learning how to turn your always watching (super-)ego into a helpful resource than allowing it to grow into a castrational force ...

Once achieved *that* it becomes clear that playing music is a life long journey that ranges from stellar moments to total defeat, such as life itself.

Go out to the park and watch the kiddies learn how to walk (yes: pun intended, well greased) and how much fun the have falling and standing up again ...
Now then, if you watch the adult pedestrians you may notice that a lot if them are in need to have a better training, but they walk anyway ...

I always found Mr. Aebersold is overcomplicating things ... And he made a living out of that, just as all the other buddies (aka companies) that are enforcing the lack, promising to be helpful if you buy into their system that promises to become a better person, a better player.

ooooooommmmm ...

;-)
 
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Yeah, music should be all about pleasure regardless of what skill level you're at. Sorry but if you have to wait a year much less 50 to consistently have fun, you're doing it wrong. I feel sorry for Jamey it took that long if that's really true.
 
Yeah, music should be all about pleasure regardless of what skill level you're at. Sorry but if you have to wait a year much less 50 to consistently have fun, you're doing it wrong. I feel sorry for Jamey it took that long if that's really true.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed! It's much appreciated! Great to hear your experience!

I think Jamey is an unusually honest guy based on my personal dealings with him and his organization, but I suspect that he's exaggerating to make a point to put his campers at ease with that statement. I'd call that a self-effacing gesture more than anything else. He's not a perfect guy, but my interactions with him indicate that he's kind, generous, thoughtful, courageous, and intends to make the world a better place. Can't get too much better than that, IMO. One of the heros of the 20th century and how many of them are there?

As far as the criticism that he over-complicates things, I'm sympathetic but, in my educated opinion, his way is accurate and if anything, tries to address every possible situation, and so, maybe you don't need all of his theory to find your way to playing well, but that doesn't mean that Jamey's nomenclature is overly complex - it's just very thorough. The more I'm exposed to it, the more I appreciate its accuracy and SIMPLICITY, and I think that says a lot - the more I get into it, the simpler and more accurate I find it. Maybe you'd find the same thing if you spent more time with it.

In my case, I'd say that I've always loved music and have loved to play it even more since I was a young child - 6, 7 years old. To this day, one of my favorite things to do is to practice and when the band is hot and happening... better than sex - okay, not always, I've had some pretty great sex in my half-century - but in the running, anyway.

That said, for me, it kind of comes and goes. Thinking back on it, maybe as I pass through each stage, at first it's new and exciting and, ego-boosting honestly (?!?!), "I get to play with THESE guys, wow!", but that gives way to frustration more than anything as I work through that stage.

About 18 months ago I resolved to finally master my instrument - I had gotten some, what I now consider to be bad advice from a previous teacher - he had great musicianship and ears and so I accepted his advice but have come to regard it as ultimately self-defeating. Things like "don't worry about thumb position because the money notes are below D", etc. Similarly, that teacher pooh-poohed ear training and transcription while a later teacher basically said "You can't play it until you can hear" and I think I've found that the later teacher's advice works for me.

At every stage I've had fun, even at the most basic near-nut exercises with Simandl. Even back when I had to write out my bass lines because I couldn't read the changes fast enough. But that's nothing in comparison to hearing a tune solidly throughout the performance in my mind's ear, not having to worry about my intonation or the mechanics of playing the bass and getting a good tone and hearing what the other players are playing rhythmically, melodically, and harmonically, and responding to it in a, not just meaningful, but artistic way, to shape and participate in the shape of the tune as it progresses. It becomes a living artistic entity of its own and I find that extremely gratifying as I become an equal partner in the performance.

So, for me, each stage has had its fun and then its drudgery but I'm tenacious enough to work through the drudgery until it becomes fun again and each new level is an order of magnitude more rewarding than the last.

It sounds like it was easier for most of you than it was for me, but I thought I'd put it out there for folks like me, to let them know that they're not alone in their aspirations, frustrations, and doubts. I suppose the takeaway is 1) get a well-respected teacher that you feel you can trust 2) work hard to push through your weaknesses and 3) it can be worth the sacrifice - but plan out that day-job just in case.

Still giving back.
 
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I was not trying to discredit Jamey Aebersold. How could I? The sound & energy of the bass tracks from Sam Jones on the Adderley volume alone is worth a fortune.
Rather was I trying to say that all methods & systems are functional (some better than others, depending on your structures) as crouches, but better to be overcome as soon as possible instead of being turned into an end in themselves.
The implicit danger with theories & methods is that the 'fun element' is disregarded easily because it has no correspondence in the academic world. They are all brain but the emotions (such as 'having fun') are related to the body. It may be safe to say that very few people are having fun while thinking ...

Music is not only a phenomena but also a behaviour; it has shown up in the evolution with a purpose. Like all art it connects the inner world of people, processes things that cannot be experienced otherwise.

You cannot make beautiful music with knowledge alone, there has to be something else in it, something like an 'urgency', something that drives it. It's a human thing.
It certainly helps to know stuff but it also helps to moisture the products from theories and abstractions with emotions (or the other way around).


It sounds like it was easier for most of you than it was for me,

No Tom, it was not easier, it never is ...
And thank you for telling the journey of oscillations that I'm sure most people can relate to.

Mr. Spock from Starship Enterprise would have commented: 'fascinating species these humans' ...
In the meantime the questions if we have a soul remains unanswered. It may be beneficial to assume that there is something like it, and that it can be penetrated by music ...
 
Seems to me like too many people concentrate on all the intellectual growth around Jazz and forget that it was all about a feel and fun at the beginning. The minute I put away the theory books and just started grooving it all became clear. I got my epiphany after seeing Ray Brown live. Nothing higher than a Bb on the G string past the 1st octave, and nothing faster than a 16th note the whole night. Nothing too terribly complicated but he had every toe tapping and a smile on every face. GO for that magic, it is not in the head. It is in the heart.
 
FWIW, I was given my 1st acoustic bass guitar at age 52, and took my 1st lesson 2 years later. I bought my double bass at age 56. I joined a Jazz trio a year & half ago, and the other 2 musicians were (are) much better players than I was (am). The 1st year was quite a struggle for me, but my bandmates were very patient. I really missed not having drums to lean on. As Chris wisely wrote: "fake it 'til you make it and then hope for the best"

Then after about a year, things really started clicking for me. Playing this music really has forced me to improve my chops, and now, I'm much more confident in providing the rhythmic base while the two soloists do their thing. As H-Diddy says, I'm learning to turn my mistakes into 'interesting' note choices in my walking bass lines.

I really don't care for most bass solos, and my soloing is virtually nonexistent, but I'm having lots of fun, and still am improving my chops weekly, if not daily. One of my focuses for the past few months is to improve my arco technique. I may not care for bass solos, but arco bass is another thing entirely. I'm starting to feel somewhat solid on the melody for 'Scotch & Soda', and would like to think that I rock the transcribed Louis Armstrong trumpet solo on 'Muskrat Ramble'. I'm now working on transcribing Satchmo's solo on 'Basin Street Blues'. I'm not sure if I'll ever have the aptitude for improvisation, but maybe if I live long enough..

So for me, it took about a year playing jazz before it was really fun, but I also was over 50…(I'm 59 now)
 
I know this isn't a popular position but I've pretty much forgone individual instruction via private lessons for pretty much the past 3-4 years. I still get one-off lessons about once a year but I get far more enjoyment out of exploring things and figuring them out for myself. It's like you're back in the age of early scientific discovery and finding things out for yourself and making your own connections about how things work. This is the #1 contributing factor in which things are fun for me.

Teachers have their agenda. They see the world in their way and will route students into the path that they've determined it to be. I think this is needed, at least for the beginning and obtaining some facility, but at some point you have to learn to teach yourself and make your own discoveries. I believe in basic music theory, it's the other stuff going into advanced theory that makes me chafe.

Anyways, When the music is honest and clear, it's the most fun to play and the most enjoyable to listen to. I think Bill Evans describes it well. There's a segment out of these videos where he says something "You can find great satisfaction and gratitude in exploring things for yourself." Something like that. I'll have to find it.


 
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When the music is honest and clear, it's the most fun to play and the most enjoyable to listen to

That is very true! However, playing music to me Does not always equal to having fun. One day it can be hard labour and another day it comes out by itself. I would like to quote sonny Rollins here or at least give his idea. In one of his interviews on YouTube he said that he practices at home to find a way to the subconscious so that he would know how to get there when he plays before an audience. When he plays he starts with a cliche to set it in motion and once the music is in motion he just steps aside, he said. So to me, to have fun doesn't mean to stop studying practicing or whatever, it's more about being able to step aside from the very first notes and let the music flow, wich I hope is going to be easier after some decades of playing

Thanks,
 
That is very true! However, playing music to me Does not always equal to having fun. One day it can be hard labour and another day it comes out by itself. I would like to quote sonny Rollins here or at least give his idea. In one of his interviews on YouTube he said that he practices at home to find a way to the subconscious so that he would know how to get there when he plays before an audience. When he plays he starts with a cliche to set it in motion and once the music is in motion he just steps aside, he said. So to me, to have fun doesn't mean to stop studying practicing or whatever, it's more about being able to step aside from the very first notes and let the music flow, wich I hope is going to be easier after some decades of playing

I agree with the Sonny bit, but disagree that music can be hard labor. Music is a blessing. Having the ability and time to practice is a blessing and a priviledge, regardless of how challenging or difficult the material. I would much rather play a poopy no paying 4-hr gig with some terrible players than dig a ditch.

IMO, if you see a musical endeavor as hard labor, I think you've let that relationship to music happen that way. Ego usually ruins any experience pretty quickly. The inner critic excels at taking something that's supposed to be fun and turn it into torture.
 
Playing is indeed a blessing, but it also takes a lot of devotion and discipline to practice, to me. I may not understand the word fun the way you do here. Hiking is fun to me. Getting closer to the nature for a couple of days, resting from the city noise breathing fresh air etc. but when you go up high in the mountain say there's no more fun. You have to be well prepared with all the equipment and techniques and it's still dangerous if you go all the way to the top with people dying every now and then. There is some valuable experience that you get from that and there's emotions and plenty of that too but I wouldn't call this fun at all. Then after you become more proficient some of these routes are no longer dangerous to you and they become more fun and may become even boring. That's what I think happens with me and the music. Playing music is very rewarding but after a lot of hours it just becomes less challenging and more fun to do. this goes for both technique and feeling, cause as you play more you also find new ways to express yourself. Sorry I don't mean to teach anybody, I'm just trying to explain to myself the idea of the original statement, and to me it sounds like by the age of 50 this person became so proficient that expressing himself with the language of music was no longer a challenge for him. I can't see where he states he didn't get any return in all his music career, it just wasn't exactly fun all the time.
 
I can listen to jazz all day long but never really enjoyed playing it, so I pretty much stopped playing it altogether after years of practice.

I find heavy walking bass, basically bebop style exhausting to play, mentally and physically.
I never could reach a level where I could freely walk over a chord chart at first sight, unless it felt into a very traditional progression.
As a result, I had to play over the same standards again and again (boring) or my lines sounded cliché, unfit, since I didn't have enough command over what I played..

I still love to play New Orleans style tunes, Gershwin era songs, 70's jazz rock, things that may not sound simpler to the listener but are in my comfort zone.
 
I think one should differentiate between "music" and "instrument". While music ist always a pleasure to play or to listen, practicing on the instrument can be hard labour sometime!

I just can't believe that so many people never felt that music is just not happening when you're playing. Even if you're pressing the right keys with good sound and time, it is just not there and you're spending the whole day to put a bit of music in what you play. Another day you just grab the instrument and it comes without an effort, but it's not like that any day, at least in my case.
 
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