How much transposing is enough???

[Big Brother]

A lot of people claim they "play by ear" which is a euphemism for "painting by numbers". They would rather put their finger on this string and that fret with a dot in it without regard for what the function of that note is within the chord, if you even know what the chord is to begin with.

I just hope to someday possess a small fraction of your immense creative talent.

For instance, I could never cram that much much self-righteousness into two sentences.

 

[nortonrider]

You know what doesn't sound right? When the singer can't hit the notes of the song when it's played in the original key. I don't think people go to clubs to hear cover bands and the bass player specifically. They are there for the singer since the lyrics are what they identify with.

A lot of people claim they "play by ear" which is a euphemism for "painting by numbers". They would rather put their finger on this string and that fret with a dot in it without regard for what the function of that note is within the chord, if you even know what the chord is to begin with.

Maybe you should change up your practice routine from just learning new songs to learning a song in all 12 keys. You'll be surprised how much faster you'll progress musically outside of your cover band and when the next transposing problem comes up you can handle it more professionally.

I don't think it's a matter of what you can play, it's more about if it sounds right.

Play the bass intro part to Sweet Child of mine in standard tuning and see if it sounds right to you.

 

[skwee]

Songs must be in the best key for the singer.

 

[carl h.]

I just hope to someday possess a small fraction of your immense creative talent.

For instance, I could never cram that much much self-righteousness into two sentences.

Well, your whole premise here in this thread does smack of being lazy. We're talking electric instruments, not acoustic instruments where vibrating plates interact to alter the tone of different notes.

If the singer is struggling, everything else sounds bad. Make the singer sound good - learn your part in making it happen.

 

[onlyclave]

I just hope to someday possess a small fraction of your immense creative talent.

For instance, I could never cram that much much self-righteousness into two sentences.

It's a cover band, brother. Not much creativity there.

 

[markanini]

Try transposing songs on keyboard for a change.

 

[onlyclave]

I don't think it's a matter of what you can play, it's more about if it sounds right.

Play the bass intro part to Sweet Child of mine in standard tuning and see if it sounds right to you.

It's a half step. Not much of a difference.

Listen to "2112" recorded in 1976 by Rush and listen to them play it now. It's tuned down a minor 3rd. Does it sound "wrong"? Geddy sure sounds like crap trying to screech away at notes he can't hit anymore.

 

[gigslut]

Try transposing songs on keyboard for a change.

Don't they have a button that does that for you now?

 

[Big Brother]

Well, your whole premise here in this thread does smack of being lazy. We're talking electric instruments, not acoustic instruments where vibrating plates interact to alter the tone of different notes.

If the singer is struggling, everything else sounds bad. Make the singer sound good - learn your part in making it happen.

No, that is actually not my premise at all.

As I stated, I HAVE learned to play our songs in other keys, we have a dozen or so songs in different keys and I play them all without argument.

My question is about transposing songs to the point that they no longer sound good, is what I hear the same as what everyone else hears?

My question is if changing the key changes the way a song feels for others here.

It appears that some do feel it does. My response to onlyclave was about how condescending he came across in his assessment of how others learn and play music.

I play by ear but as it turns out I can read music too, I am not in the NY Symphony but I was a first chair bass clarinetist in a very good program all through school. Our quartet went to state. I'm not an idiot for having an ear and resented the depiction.

 

[onlyclave]

No, that is actually not my premise at all.

As I stated, I HAVE learned to play our songs in other keys, we have a dozen or so songs in different keys and I play them all without argument.

My question is about transposing songs to the point that they no longer sound good, is what I hear the same as what everyone else hears?

My question is if changing the key changes the way a song feels for others here.

It appears that some do feel it does. My response to onlyclave was about how condescending he came across in his assessment of how others learn and play music.

I play by ear but as it turns out I can read music too, I am not in the NY Symphony but I was a first chair bass clarinetist in a very good program all through school. Our quartet went to state. I'm not an idiot for having an ear and resented the depiction.

Oh, an orchestral player. Good, then you know that something played in Db in an orchestra will have a darker tone to it since there are not that many open strings to vibrate sympathetically and make it sound brighter, like something played in A.

These are electric instruments and not as many of them on stage. If the singer can't hit the notes you're in the wrong key and it sounds bad by default.

I didn't mean to sound condescending, but when someone claims they play by ear they mean they are playing by the frets. Truly playing by ear means you can transpose fairly effortlessly since that is an aural exercise.

At what point does the song no longer sound good because of transposing?

 

[nortonrider]

Blue Sky - Allman Brothers. recorded in E.

I saw Dickey Betts play it G. it didn't sound like the same song to me, and this is the dude that wrote it.
(I heard that he is now back playing it in E.)

 

[dtripoli]

Been backing female singers for the past 8 years and we transpose so much that I can't tell you what the song's original keys are. The point of transposing, or finding the best key is to give the vocalist the best range for the song.
As much as I'd hate to admit it, the vocalist is the one in the spotlight. They sound bad or weak, so will the audience's impression of the group.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Well, your whole premise here in this thread does smack of being lazy. We're talking electric instruments, not acoustic instruments where vibrating plates interact to alter the tone of different notes.

If the singer is struggling, everything else sounds bad. Make the singer sound good - learn your part in making it happen.

You must not understand his point if you see it as being lazy. He's not refusing to transpose because it's hard. Rather, he's saying that when he transposes some songs their (for lack of a better description) eternal essence gets changed, and sometimes it's not for the better.

I'll say this - I have played with a number of other players over the years who have claimed to have not heard the difference when we would transpose a GnR or AiC song (often) up from the original tuning. Many even said it would make no difference for the audience. To me, it definitely does.

As Brother has already said, it's not about being lazy. In fact, I'd argue that transposing on bass is perhaps the easiest thing out there because the song will always be the exact same pattern regardless of the key. That said, and to my ears at least, some songs lose their soul when the key changes. Their emotional impact disappears and they no longer are inspiring to play or even listen to.

I guess if you don't find that true at least some of the time then our ears are just developed differently from one another.

 

[Rob22315]

Don't they have a button that does that for you now?

Yes, in fact, our keyboard player's Yamaha DX7S from the 80's has that feature. Just a few menu selections and you've moved up or down a couple of half tones. It also has a micro tune feature for selecting different tempurments (sp?).

 

[Rob22315]

For guitarists, transposing can mess up the chord voicing if some of the chords rely on open strings and you're not using a capo.

 

[Big Brother]

I didn't mean to sound condescending, but when someone claims they play by ear they mean they are playing by the frets.

You are very wrong about that.

I can't speak for others but my hand reaches for notes instinctively, it did on the clarinet too. I don't move it consciously, I sometimes wonder what guides it.

As to playing by ear, I've never taken piano lessons but sometimes I hit a note that reminds me of something and I can pick out the entire song from memory based on that one note. Before the days of digital music I learned how to play the Peanuts theme perfectly from going down an escalator at Nordstroms while Christmas shopping and hearing it played on a grand piano like they used to do, then rushing home to learn what was still ringing in my head. I would slip into a piano room at my colleges music department and hammer away when this happened.

I can't always do that from a recording, it lacks something. But if I hear it live, I remember it and if the piano or other instrument has the same basic tone as I heard, it is easy to learn that song. Real easy.

There is no 'fretting' involved in that. It's an instrument I have never studied formally or otherwise, I've never even had a piano.

Same with voices. Impersonations come very easy just the same if my vocal cords and natural intonation are in the same ballpark.

I've been involved in music enough to know people can learn and understand music in vastly different ways. To trivialize others is always going to come across as condescending. I have mad respect for sight readers for instance, because I can't do it. Sometimes people will reject what they don't understand though instead, I see that all across life. I really don't think you quite know what an 'ear' player hears or does and it's really another subject than this thread entirely.

 

[Neon Scribe]

The melody of the song must fit the vocal range of the singer. If you don't know the word, look it up: tessitura. If you're accompanying a classical singer, there's no transposing. Singers choose material or productions choose singers based on suitability of range. If you're accompanying pre-rock popular vocal music, e.g. cabaret or vocal jazz, the singer chooses the key. Those songs get performed in many different keys. You'd better be ready to transpose to the key your singer wants, but you aren't trying to sound exactly like a particular recording. If you're in a (rock-era) cover band and the goal is to sound as much like the original recording, you would be wise to stick to the original key. That means you should choose your material to fit your vocalist, or choose your vocalist to fit your material. If you're in an original band or a band playing familiar songs with your own interpretation, you can transpose any way you like, but the performance is yours, not a copy of someone else's.

The OP is addressing the case of a cover band where the goal is to simulate the original sound, but the vocalist can't really do it in the original key. I tend to agree with the OP that it no longer sounds like the original. Something seems "off". It might make me feel a little edgy. You don't need perfect pitch to notice it. The bandleader has to make a compromise. His customers demand certain songs, and they demand that all the songs sound as much like the original as possible. There's really no other way to go in this case. Most of the audience will be happy with the compromise -- it's a wedding reception, they're drinking and dancing -- but those who are listening closely (and that probably includes the band!) might just be put a little on edge. Such is the life of a working musician.

 

[carl h.]

OK, A little life experience here. I play violin. I play it professionally, but I went to school for Percussion and Saxophone. When my first kid was born I quit the whole full time pro thing to spend time at home.

Back in school I took improv classes on sax and had to learn the licks in all 12 keys, it is not a simple procedure. All those keys are not easy to navigate at speed equally in all keys. The guitar and bass players just moved their hand position and tried not to look sleepy.

I have done arrangements for different groups ranging from string quartet to symphony orchestra and have a fairly well developed ear.

On bowed stringed acoustic instruments, the difference from F# minor to G minor is a fairly significant change in instrument color. It has to do with how the instrument is built acoustically. On a sax or electric bass I do not hear such a significant change. In fact I hear almost no change other than the pitch having moved. Believe me, the other members of my quartet hated playing in F# minor, they asked for F or G minor instead, so I wrote the piece out in both F and G minor (Finale is AWESOME for that). After reading it in those keys the group decided it was best in F# because of the sounds coming from the instrument.

I play principal clarinet in the local symphony orchestra and often times I am called on to play clarinets other than the usual Bb clarinet. If it is a small lick often I'll just transpose it to save on having to carry instruments and to keep the number of reeds in play at any given time to a minimum. It never sounds quite right on the wrong instrument, but it is such a small difference that most of the time nobody is aware that I am playing it "wrong". However if the piece was written for clarinet voiced in a particular key, you had better believe there is a significant difference in how it plays and sounds when transposing it to a different instrument/key. If it is an important part only the correct instrument/key will do.


There are times when it does make a difference, but with mostly electric instruments and a singer, not so much. I've been in a couple bands since my "retirement" and honestly do not see that it is much of a big deal to accommodate the singer. As was said by someone else, if the singer sounds weak, that is how the band will be remembered.

Do what it takes to sound your best.

 

[jive1]

It depends on the song, but for most cases I'll always give the vocalist the prerogative since it's the most limited instrument.

If I don't like the way my bass plays or sounds, I can get another one or I can have several around for the sounds I want to create. If I want more lower range from my bass, I can get a 5 string. If I want more higher range, I can get a 6 string or piccolo bass. If I'm still not getting the range I want, I can get an octave pedal. If I want a gritter tone, I can add an overdrive pedal. If I want it cleaner, I can change pickups or preamp. If I want a different timbre, I can use EQ, different gauges of strings, pickups, preamp, amplifier, etc.

The issue is that for vocalists, the above options aren't available like they are for bassists. Sure, I can take lessons and practice to increase my range, but I will hit a peak. I can never sing like Michael Jackson or Ann Wilson without a falsetto and sounding ridiculous in the process. Sure I could use effects like an octave or auto-tune, but I would sound ridiculous singing Don't Stop Believing like T-Pain. If I have a voice like Rick Astley, it would be ridiculous for me to sing a Led Zeppelin tune. Vocalists have a limited range and timbre, so that's why they get the prerogative. The reality is that a good band will play to the strengths and limitations of the players. If the singer can really nail the song doing it a whole step down, but do it mediocre in the original key, why wouldn't you transpose? There's also the issue of endurance. If a song will tire out a voice in one key, but it's easy in another key, you should choose the easier key, especially if the singer has to sing 40 songs that night. Look at it this way: Say you are playing a G on the third fret of the E and want to go to the major 3rd (B) on the 7th fret. You could make the stretch with your pinky, or you could play the next string down at the 2nd fret. There's going to be smaller differences in timbre between those 2 fret positions, but if you're doing G major stuff all night, then your hand will get much more tired doing an all-nighter making the stretch instead of just playing the same note on the A string.

The important thing is that the band sounds good, and that means you have to include the vocalist as well. Maybe it sounds better tuned a 1/2 step down or in drop D, but if the vocals can't hit it, then you need to either transpose or drop the tune. I can play Don't Stop Believing in the original key, but I don't have even close to Steve Perry's range, so I'll have to do it in C. The difference is one key will make a crowd favorite FUBAR, and the other won't destroy the small amount of dignity still in that song. The other thing is transitions from one song to another. If you have to switch instruments, retune, etc. between songs you can disrupt the flow of the show and potentially kill momentum. If you have the crowd rocking, one of the worst things you can do causing dead air by retuning.

My only exception to giving the vocalist prerogative on key is if a signature instrumental part of a song can't be played in the transposed key. For example, take SRV's Pride and Joy. The intro is done in E or Eb depending on your tuning. It relies on the open E string for the intro. You can play it in F by capoing it, but you can't do it in D with a capo without it sounding way too high. Detuning that much may mess with a guitar setup, or take too long between songs, so your choice is the either pick a key that the both the vocalist and guitarist can sing and play the intro or drop the tune from the repertoire.

 

[geddeeee]

Our band have never 'transposed' the covers we play. I think it shows disrespect to the original artist.
If you can't play it, don't do it!!!