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How much transposing is enough???
- Thread starter Big Brother
- Start date
To my ears, transposing half a step is usually okay, but more than that sounds off. A few years ago, I listened to an old recording made by a former BF's band. They had transposed AC/DC's You Shook Me from G to E, and even though they performed it competently, I thought it sounded awful.
As my drummer once said "If you're in a cover band, there are thousands of songs out there to choose from. If you don't sound good on one, find another."
I also think that 2112 sounds horrid these days.
As my drummer once said "If you're in a cover band, there are thousands of songs out there to choose from. If you don't sound good on one, find another."
I also think that 2112 sounds horrid these days.
The singer is the priority here, and keys should be chosen to suit the vocals. However this is a compromise and often the song will lose something intangible when played in a different key. Therefore I think this should done on a limited basis, a better option is to cover songs that are singable in the original key.
I'm surprised that some folk can't hear much difference when a song is transposed. I think all keys have their own flavour, even on fretted electrical instruments - E is rich, G is happy, C is plaintive etc. Beethoven didn't write the Moonlight Sonata in E on a whim.
The use of open strings is also a factor, you just can't replicate the sustain and tone of an open string when fretting.
So yes, vocalists dictate key signatures and rightly so, but better on the whole to stick to stuff you can do in the original key. Wedding bands who need to cover all the popular stuff can transpose as much as they like, who's going to notice? I can' imagine a decent tribute act would use anything other than the original keys and tuning because it just wouldn't sound right.
I'm surprised that some folk can't hear much difference when a song is transposed. I think all keys have their own flavour, even on fretted electrical instruments - E is rich, G is happy, C is plaintive etc. Beethoven didn't write the Moonlight Sonata in E on a whim.
The use of open strings is also a factor, you just can't replicate the sustain and tone of an open string when fretting.
So yes, vocalists dictate key signatures and rightly so, but better on the whole to stick to stuff you can do in the original key. Wedding bands who need to cover all the popular stuff can transpose as much as they like, who's going to notice? I can' imagine a decent tribute act would use anything other than the original keys and tuning because it just wouldn't sound right.
+1, although I'm not sure how many would recognize the straining voice either. Many people of TB give the audience way too much credit for recognizing when the band doesn't sound like the original.
How many of you have seen or been in bands where when the bass stops playing, nobody noticed?
That's right!
'cause the average audience member can immediately hear that song you're doing in Ab was originally recorded in A.
How disrespectful.
In all seriousness, when playing jazz, blues or R&B standards, nobody asks what the original key is, they ask what key are we doing it in.
jive1
Commercial User
Dm is the saddest of all keys.
But seriously, if you're tied to a guitar then I can maybe see that point since you will be restricted to certain voicings on open chords based on the key, thus getting those moods. But on a more linear instrument like a saxophone or voice, aside from timbre and pitch, I don't think the mood would be different based on key.
jive1
Commercial User
I played with a classic rock group for a while that covered alot of Cream and Clapton. I had a few guys from the audience tell me that I sounded like Jack Bruce, and a couple say that they could tell that Jack Bruce was a big influence on my playing. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I never really listened to him that much growing up, and I learned most of those tunes on the fly. All I knew is that Jack Bruce plays pretty busy, and that's what I did.
That's the truth. And even if they say original key, the next question would be "based on which recording or artist?"
Good Point!
For me I would think that it is the version that I liked the best, the one that moved me enough to learn the song.
It ain't a big deal. Once I know whether it's on the dots or the blanks, the patterns are the same. If you follow two simple rules, it's no problem:
1. Play a five-string, and
2. Never play an open string unless you mean it.
Then there's no "re-learning." It's just patterns.
1. Play a five-string, and
2. Never play an open string unless you mean it.
Then there's no "re-learning." It's just patterns.
I can learn it with a little more effort, I just have to 'know' it well in the normal key before I can transpose - I have to be my own reference as an ear player because there are usually no examples to the songs we play in different keys to listen to.
I've only played a year and some, in time I think the whole fretboard will be instinctive and transposing will be a breeze but I am still a ways off.
My concern isn't so much me or my own sound though, but that the entire song sounds off to me in different keys. Our singer is good, I just believe in certain songs the quality that makes them good in another key is lost, I wanted to see if others felt the same way.
Lots of good advice in this thread though, I've learned things I didn't expect.
+1 that right there is why I play fives and sixes pretty much all the time now, I just find it easier to transpose
I think this really touches on how I see it too, and others. I was wondering and now I know I am really not terribly alone on this concept.
My preferred solution is to seek songs in our singers natural key instead of forcing a round peg into a square hole. A difference of opinion with the bandleader I guess, who feels that even two whole steps is OK if need be to play a song. To him what matters is hitting the right melody, regardless of time or key. We have a bit of tension building I think because we do not see eye to eye on this.
I am not really seeking validation, more I am doing a sanity check before making a better case about this to him. Seems like the smart thing to do...
Funny you say this, I once had an Eb Alto foisted on me to play and I never enjoyed playing it at all, it never sounded right to me.
This was probably with the least of the music departments I had overall and I don't think the arrangements were of much quality, they were cheap renditions of pop songs and such. This teacher wasn't quite as good as the rest... I would not be surprised if the parts I was playing were just cheaply transposed Bb parts like you mentioned 'cheating' with, thinking the alto to be an afterthought. Hence my 'edge' when playing.
Why not just replace me and the drummer with a sequencer to be even more note perfect. The crowd will eat that up.
But as pointed out, tabs with open strings do not translate when transposed and take a little more work to recompose, it is essentially the same effort as transposing by ear.
The question isn't that I can't play in other keys, I can and do. The question is that sometimes I don't think a song sounds right when the band as a whole does it.
As a lead-singing bassist, my experience has been that you can move a tune a whole step in either direction and the audience will never know. Any more than that and the "flavor" of the song is different and noticeable. But here's the gag: If the original tune was sung by a male and your singer is female, then that "flavor" is going to be fundamentally different anyhow, so you might as well do it in her key.
I've got nothing against transposing, we do it on a number of our tunes. I agree in principle that you've got to play it in a key that the singer can sing it in.
However, I'd still play devil's advocate here; I would say that part of being a good singer is knowing your voice well, what songs you can pull off and what you can't. I do think there's a point where a singer should say, "That's a great song, but I won't be able to do justice to it, so let's shelve it and work on something more realistic."
The case in our band would be Kelly Clarkson's "Since U Been Gone." We normally play downtuned a half-step; we transpose that song down another whole step so that we're 1 1/2 steps below the original recording, in E rather than G. Which is no problem for me and the guitarist to play, and lets our singer hit the high notes; the problem is that her low notes in the verses are now so low that she can't get enough breath under them and no one can hear them.
However, I'd still play devil's advocate here; I would say that part of being a good singer is knowing your voice well, what songs you can pull off and what you can't. I do think there's a point where a singer should say, "That's a great song, but I won't be able to do justice to it, so let's shelve it and work on something more realistic."
The case in our band would be Kelly Clarkson's "Since U Been Gone." We normally play downtuned a half-step; we transpose that song down another whole step so that we're 1 1/2 steps below the original recording, in E rather than G. Which is no problem for me and the guitarist to play, and lets our singer hit the high notes; the problem is that her low notes in the verses are now so low that she can't get enough breath under them and no one can hear them.
jive1
Commercial User
tdelamont said:
I agree. If you're working with a different range and timbre, you may add well transpose to key that works best.
We all tune 1/2 step down just to make it easier on our singers, some songs our lead singer cant sing because it will be to low for her, in that case the drummer sings it! If that dont work we trash the tune, there are plenty of songs out there that one will not matter!
