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How safe is it to run an amp without a power condtioner

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#21
IMO
A decent amp should not need EMI filtering as it should have been done at the factory
You're not going to be able to afford and type of high / low voltage spike suppression that will clamp quickly enough to save your gear from a sudden spike or sag unless you want to invest a few hundred dollars, and, if you're going to do that, it makes the most sense to buy an auto transofrmer that will provide you with 120VAC during line voltage fluctuations
Also, big, dumb, tube amps with non-switching power supplies or fragile transistors don't seem to get hurt by reasonable power fluctuations; can't wait to see how the digital amps do
 
#22
Jim C said:
IMO
A decent amp should not need EMI filtering as it should have been done at the factory
You're not going to be able to afford and type of high / low voltage spike suppression that will clamp quickly enough to save your gear from a sudden spike or sag unless you want to invest a few hundred dollars, and, if you're going to do that, it makes the most sense to buy an auto transofrmer that will provide you with 120VAC during line voltage fluctuations
Also, big, dumb, tube amps with non-switching power supplies or fragile transistors don't seem to get hurt by reasonable power fluctuations; can't wait to see how the digital amps do
Click to expand...

By and large, switchmode amps have regulated power supplies, so they should be fairly insensitive to power issues.
 
#23
As I said some will violently disagree!! :)

I look at it this way:

Is a rack mount power bar better than a good power bar? No!

If you never experience a bad surge is protection needed? No!

If you do experience a bad surge is protection needed? Absolutely.

Do surges happen in real life? Of course they do. I have had to repair quite a lot of equipment that has suffered damage from "bad electricity" as my good wife calls it. I prefer to have good surge protection for my expensive equipment. You can have that in a power bar or a rack mount unit. I prefer to have a rack mount and I am prepared to pay the premium for that.

Paul
 
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#24
BassmanPaul said:
As I said some will violently disagree!! :)
Click to expand...
Yep. Those who make them, those who sell them, and those who believe the hype promulgated by same. :scowl:
I believe this is Myth #2, second only to Underpowering, and as I saw done in that case in the past day all posters asking the question should be directed to read the FAQ, with the thread summarily closed. Please. :crying:
 
#25
Here is my basic knowledge from experience only.

The drawer is of little use. I bought a 2 space drawer with intentions of keeping my cables and pedals in there. I had 1 pedal at the time, a Sansamp, and it stored that great, and my cables fit in decently, as well as held my power supply for the cable. That being said, my rack case went from being a 50lbs which was an amp, tuner, and conditioner, to close to 75 with everything.

This was too much for me to carry on an almost daily basis, and really, having that drawer did not help that much.

The power conditioner is whatever. I know they are a glorified power strip, but they are convenient. The one time I didn't use mine, a guitarist plugged into my power strip on the floor after my head was powering up and popped my speaker fuse. Needless to say, I wish I had my own that night, as my sansamp was what went to the board and I had no backline and nothing in the monitors.
 
#26
If you do experience a bad surge is protection needed? Absolutely.
Click to expand...

Agreed; I have seen gear that was badly damaged as the assumed "protection" device could not clamp quickly enough.

With our old twin 24 track remote truck the designer incorporated MOV's that would be destroyed in the event of a spike but that would react fast enough. I believe that many of the units that are advertised are not quality. While they can't hurt, the can offer false inusrance.
 
#27
georgestrings said:
I don't agree with this - I use a Korg DTR-2000 racked tuner, and it's very convenient... They weigh next to nothing, and I don't have any cables to run for a tuner, nor anything on the floor... I also have a Strobostomp, and have owned a TU-2, so I'm no stranger to pedal tuners... No doubt that the Turbo Tuner is a great device, but for *some*, rack mount tuners make perfect sense...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...
+1, exactly, one cable from bass to head, i try and keep my rig as simple as possible to be able to diagnose any problems on the fly. Cable backups and thats it.
 
#28
In general, amps with power transformers don't particularly need surge protection. The 4PRO has a power transformer, and won't need the surge protector.

if you get a big enough surge to cause a problem, the little bitty surge protectors in the strips, the 'power conditioners", or in most amps that have them, will just fail anyway, and be disconnected by their (safety-required) fuse. After that they are not even working, and the surge goes right through.

The protector suited for a serious surge is the size of a large fat doorknob, and costs around $70. And even THAT will not protect against the line voltage going up 50% or something like that.

Just don't sweat it.

As for the tuner, YOU know (since you have researched the amp), but some of the other posters do not, that the 4PRO has a buffered tuner output specifically FOR plugging in a tuner full time. So if you want a tuner, you can just plug it in, let it be there, and use it whenever.
 
#30
And I have been playing for 47 years some times at way more than 200 gigs a year. Have I ever experienced a surge problem during that time? Not that I am aware of and certainly not one that caused damage. My view, as stated earlier, is for the sake of a few bucks why risk it? It comes down to what makes you comfortable. I agree that all this protection SHOULD be built into any amplifier. How many do? If no protection is needed why do so many, like in all, computer power supplies, SMPS, incorporate line filtering and surge protection in spades? Yes apples and oranges for sure but the principle applies. If you don't use power protection that's your choice. I hope, sincerely, that you never need it. If you do.....

Paul
 
#31
This is what I use and it fits quite nicely in my cable bag.
Sweetwater has them for $39.95 with free shipping. )=(

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I'd agree with everybody that says they've been gigging for 20-30 odd years without any protectoon and not had any problems. I've never experienced a surge big enough to blow up any of my gear, but a couple of times I've played in joints where my amp shut down from very low amperage circuits. Especially where the band only had one outlet behind the stage to plug everything into. That's why I bought that unit from Monster Cable. Have never had any problems using that unit even on some of the funkiest stages in the New England area. Of course I'm skeptical of exactly how much it will really protect my gear in case of a really big surge, but for me, for the cost of the $40 bucks, and no problems since, it's seemed well worth it.
 
#32
Transformers were not meant to take High Voltage Spikes and keep ticking. It of coarse is not everyday that one gets a spike from the power company but it does happen.

Here is a transformer that took a spike and melted in the process.


Cartersville75KVATransformer.jpg


Here is what I use to protect against such travesties and it works. I have first hand knowledge that it works.

This little box will take up to 32,000 jewels and protect the gear hooked to it. It also has RFI/EMI filtration which comes in handy in poorly wired smoky old bars.


100_0670.jpg


If I were running a piece of gear I prized I would have at least some sort of spike protection in front of it.
 
#34
Red Planet said:
Here is what I use to protect against such travesties and it works. I have first hand knowledge that it works.

This little box will take up to 32,000 jewels and protect the gear hooked to it. It also has RFI/EMI filtration which comes in handy in poorly wired smoky old bars.


100_0670.jpg
Click to expand...

Do you mean 32,000 Joules?

I can't make out the name in the photo it looks like somethingGuard. What's it called?
 
#39
I can't spell to save my rear end. :D

People have a tendency to pick one thing out of what I say and ignore the rest.

For most folks it is not possible to use what I am using. What I am using is not purchased off the shelf at Home Depot, however it is possible to buy a strip with adequate surge suppression that will protect your equipment. The units I use have to be built, they do not come assembled.

Also note, it is possible to go many many years without a problem, indeed. The time one is playing his equipment (when speaking of a rig) is rather limited for most folks, (even for folks on tour) a few hours a day of usage limits ones exposure.

To think the power company is sending you safe voltage all the time is to have your head in the sand. The power company has a desire to send you safe regulated power but it is just not possible all the time.

Here is an easy scenario to think of.

The transmission lines that bring the voltage to you usually carry around 14,000 volts each. Say a limb falls onto two of these and voltage passes from one to another. At this point a large spike runs through the lines. Back at the substation this is seen as a short. While the spike is coming to see you it then goes through the transformers on the pole/pad at your location then steps down by a factor of the transformer rating. So lets say for arguments sake the spike on the lines was at 20,000 volts and ran through the transformers then came out at 2,000 volts straight into your gear. Not only did you just get a big Spike but back at the Substation the Re-closer kicked out (thus causing a stoppage in supply) then a few seconds later kicks back on.

So your gear just got a Zap and a half, then a brown out, and then back to normal voltage.

I have all this stuff Graphed out from actual monitoring the supply in real time while looking at Current and Voltage dips and peaks of the supply lines in front of the step-down transformers and after them. I'll see if I can dig it up and scan it. It is quite illuminating to actually see what you are getting.

And again most of the time the voltage/current stays constant but on occasion there are problems. I just think it is better to be safe than sorry especially when it comes to my life.

Again I say some sort of surge suppression I recommend. Pay attention to the specs listed. Do not rely on a manufacturer to supply you with your safety of your equipment and your being.
 
#40
I haven't been in a traffic accident in something like 25 years, yet I still wear a seat belt.
I believe that seatbelts (and air bags) save lives.

I used to use a product called Data Shield that was about $125 (20 years ago)
It had a fixed low votage protection controlled by a relay and would clamp in something like 9 nanoseconds and offered protection up to approximately 35K joules for spikes. We had a few of them protect against some big spikes in an industrial manufacturing complex back in the 80's that saved computers plugged in (running AutoCad) while the unprotected computers smoked (both were on the same circuit).

The devices were absoultely destroyed internaly but CPU & monitors were OK.
One question is, how much amplitude & duration does a spike need to posses in order to cause trouble. If the box clamps slowly (like many do) I think you can be in a world of hurt. To Gerald's point, I have never seen anything under $100 that could really help other than brown out shut downs. BTW, I was a factory authorized sales, service, and measurement lab for Corcom powerline filters back in my defense contracting days.

Decent RF attenuation and reasonable frequecy range for E, H, or Plane Wave fields in regards to EMI/ RFI as per MIL Spec 220A or when compared to FCC specs = money and large. As usual, their is no free lunch.
 
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