How to employ counterpoint?

[TheIndieKid]

When playing in a rock context, how can I employ counterpoint in my bass playing without sounding like the lead instrument? Secondly, as it is rock, should I be focusing on counterpoint to the lead guitar or vocals? In my band, I would judge the focus to be on the guitar, but I don't know.

 

[Nashrakh]

Well, first off, in traditional counterpoint thinking, it is actually desirable to sound like a second "lead instrument" because all voices can be thought of as having their own melody going.

Secondly, the answer is: all of them. In counterpoint, each voice is as important as the other and they are all "interlocking".

I highly doubt you want a classical Renaissance type counterpoint in your music, so the answer is: it depends. Maybe you can find middle ground and incorporate melodic elements of both guitar and vocals. However, if you want to employ counterpoint techniques, your bass will stand out. So beware if that's not exactly what you want.

 

[TheIndieKid]

Well, first off, in traditional counterpoint thinking, it is actually desirable to sound like a second "lead instrument" because all voices can be thought of as having their own melody going.

Secondly, the answer is: all of them. In counterpoint, each voice is as important as the other and they are all "interlocking".

I highly doubt you want a classical Renaissance type counterpoint in your music, so the answer is: it depends. Maybe you can find middle ground and incorporate melodic elements of both guitar and vocals. However, if you want to employ counterpoint techniques, your bass will stand out. So beware if that's not exactly what you want.

Is it not possible to play sparsely whilst using counterpoint? For example, using scale tones on the last beat of the bar to approach via step or fifth approach?

 

[AGCurry]

Is it not possible to play sparsely whilst using counterpoint? For example, using scale tones on the last beat of the bar to approach via step or fifth approach?

Yes, it is certainly possible to play sparsely as you describe; but, as Nashrakh stated, unless you are playing a line that can stand as a melody on its own, it's not counterpoint.

 

[Vinny_G]

Listen to Bach first, and then Yes.

 

[jthisdell]

We are working on the Beatles She Said. There is a simple lick throughout most of the song. I play it when the vocalist is singing, the guitarist plays it between vocal lines. When the guitarist is playing the riffi hang back and play more roots.

 

[AGCurry]

We are working on the Beatles She Said. There is a simple lick throughout most of the song. I play it when the vocalist is singing, the guitarist plays it between vocal lines. When the guitarist is playing the riffi hang back and play more roots.

I think that's entirely appropriate. McCartney's unconventional lines (he was a converted guitarist!) are a significant part of what's interesting about Beatles recordings.

 

[mambo4]

I have not consciously considered counterpoint in decades. I had to ponder why. I think, for me, counterpoint has become like modes: I might end up using it, but I never deliberately insert it as a concept into my creative process. Generally because the importance of genere/style and meshing with the drums so overwhelms other compositional considerations.

I might end up throwing in some counterpoint but it's usually the result of thinking "this might sound cool" rather than "I should insert some counterpoint here". How it sounds comes first, how theory might describe it comes second.

 

[Tim Skinner]

Is it not possible to play sparsely whilst using counterpoint? For example, using scale tones on the last beat of the bar to approach via step or fifth approach?

Absolutely, but in that case you are using counterpoint concepts to accentuate your line. As others have pointed out, true counterpoint stands on its own or in any combination with any of the other lines.
Counterpoint is beautiful when well executed and studying it and the associated concepts would improve anyone's musicianship especially when creating bass lines.

P.S. I used to live in Birmingham and was just there in July. My wife was born and raised there.

 

[Jazz Ad]

The basics of counterpoint are very simple. Putting them to use is a tad more complex and if you get into strict counterpoint it becomes way over my head.
It's quite easy to counterpoint the singer's melody with a bassline though. Quite efficient, too.

 

[micguy]

Counterpoint is most obvious when set against the melody. So, for most of the song, you want to counter the vocals, but during the guitar solo (when nobody is singing), counter the lead guitar line.

Playing bass - in a pop music context, for much of the song you're playing roots. It's the transitions between roots where you have the most opportunities for counterpoint - grace notes leading to your next "landing spot". If the singer is descending (most melodic lines descend) try working your way up from below that note, and of course, the other way 'round as well - try coming in from above when the singer is ascending.

 

[TheIndieKid]

Absolutely, but in that case you are using counterpoint concepts to accentuate your line. As others have pointed out, true counterpoint stands on its own or in any combination with any of the other lines.
Counterpoint is beautiful when well executed and studying it and the associated concepts would improve anyone's musicianship especially when creating bass lines.

P.S. I used to live in Birmingham and was just there in July. My wife was born and raised there.

It's very manic here at the minute. Thankfully, you missed the German Market by quite a few months. Brings out the worst in people!

 

[TheIndieKid]

I listened to some Scott LaFaro. Whilst his playing was like Coltrane's - very much 'across the barline' with unconventional phrasing - the idea of a bassline that moves in a way to add a lot of movement and texture appeals to me. It's just the conflict of my desires and the reality of 'meat and potatoes' playing being called for a lot of the time. I love playing with space - lots of whole notes and rests, but it's just figuring out how to combine it with counterpoint.

 

[stubborne]

Counterpoint is most obvious when set against the melody. So, for most of the song, you want to counter the vocals, but during the guitar solo (when nobody is singing), counter the lead guitar line.

Playing bass - in a pop music context, for much of the song you're playing roots. It's the transitions between roots where you have the most opportunities for counterpoint - grace notes leading to your next "landing spot". If the singer is descending (most melodic lines descend) try working your way up from below that note, and of course, the other way 'round as well - try coming in from above when the singer is ascending.

This is what came to my mind in the context of rock and counterpoint between bass and guitar driving the melody. The intro to Rush's Anthem is lockstep on the riff but they move into a nice counterpoint with Alex on the 2nd octave while Geddy is on the low octave (after Alex's slide), Alex descends and Geddy ascends. It's a great rock riff.

 

[micguy]

One additional note about counterpoint/movement in general. I generally try to not "move" more than the vocalist - if what you're playing is busier than the melody line, you're probably not doing your job of supporting the vocalist well. Save that stuff for when you're doing your solo bass act.

 

[Ric5]

When playing in a rock context, how can I employ counterpoint in my bass playing without sounding like the lead instrument? Secondly, as it is rock, should I be focusing on counterpoint to the lead guitar or vocals? In my band, I would judge the focus to be on the guitar, but I don't know.

any time the bass line does not follow the chords that can be counterpoint

 

[mambo4]

From wikipedia

In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony) yet independent in rhythm and contour.

In that sense, I think most bass lines are counterpoint almost automatically
They share the same harmony but have different rhythmic structures and melodic contours than the main melody.
It's hard to think of a pop/rock bass line that does not fit this definition.

I suppose you could decide that a repeated riff does not count, and exclude most however.
I which case you are really looking for baselines that are simply not repeating riffs.

 

[lfmn16]

I have not consciously considered counterpoint in decades. I had to ponder why. I think, for me, counterpoint has become like modes: I might end up using it, but I never deliberately insert it as a concept into my creative process. Generally because the importance of genere/style and meshing with the drums so overwhelms other compositional considerations.

I might end up throwing in some counterpoint but it's usually the result of thinking "this might sound cool" rather than "I should insert some counterpoint here". How it sounds comes first, how theory might describe it comes second.

Exactly. It needs to be internalized. When I'm playing a walking bass line I don't think, Well, I'm going from A to D in the key of A, it would be cool to use a leading tone to D so I'll play C# which will create a natural tension which will be resolved by the D, and then to get to the C#, I'll to play A, B, because those are in the key of A and I'll then use C as a passing tone between B and C# because that works well even though C is not in the key of A. Most of the time I'm not even thinking of the chords or the key I'm in, I just play it.

 

[dkelley]

How do I employ counterpoint?

I pay it a salary!

BWAAhahahhaha


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as you were...

 

[Slevage]

A general approach to counterpoint:

If the melody or solo instrument is moving up—- the bass line moves down.

If the melody or solo instrument is moving down—— the bass line moves up.