How to internalize the Clave???

[phillipkregg]

So I recently signed up for a cuban music class where we are focusing on clave driven music and this is the first time I've ever played this type of music.

I had spent hours listening to and playing the tunes before the first rehearsal but when it came I was just a disaster. They had to spend most of the practice helping me to stay on the groove. I've never had so much trouble trying to play a style of music. Put a swing or bebop chart in front of me and no problem, but man oh man is this latin stuff hard.

I've spent much of the weekend listening to and trying to internalize the beat but I just feel lost when I'm listening to it. It's almost like some magical cacophony where everyone is doing their own thing but somehow it's all staying together. Am I cuban deaf? Even during the rehearsal as soon as I got off the weird tied-dotted quarter plus eighth note pulse, everyone seemed to know that I was off - except for me!

Even a super simple tune like "Sabor", with a 2-3 Clave, completely throws me off. This is the version we are doing:


It's not so bad when you stay on one chord, but changing chords while keeping that groove going is just beyond me right now.

Here's another tune, that goes in and out of the clave groove:


I'll often start off correctly but then the percussion comes in and then the piano comes in and it all seems like they're doing something alien and completely different from me so if I listen to them I get thrown off.

Does anyone have any tips for how to internalize this groove? I've spent about 20 hours this weekend on it and I still feel lost and my fingers are almost starting to bleed. Maybe after a thousand more hours?

Is there a particular instrument I should be listening to and using as an "anchor"?

 

[Spin Doctor]

LOL, yeah I feel ya. I've been sort of working through the Latin stuff and it's definitely about precision. You don't get to do your own thing at all rhythm wise. I don't have any advice for you, but I'm interested in hearing what folks who know have to say. If it makes you feel any better, John Patticucci said he had a lot of trouble with it at first. You might want to get Oscar Stagnaro's "Latin Bass Book". It's pretty much the bible.

 

[Groove Master]

So I recently signed up for a cuban music class where we are focusing on clave driven music and this is the first time I've ever played this type of music.

I had spent hours listening to and playing the tunes before the first rehearsal but when it came I was just a disaster. They had to spend most of the practice helping me to stay on the groove. I've never had so much trouble trying to play a style of music. Put a swing or bebop chart in front of me and no problem, but man oh man is this latin stuff hard.

I've spent much of the weekend listening to and trying to internalize the beat but I just feel lost when I'm listening to it. It's almost like some magical cacophony where everyone is doing their own thing but somehow it's all staying together. Am I cuban deaf? Even during the rehearsal as soon as I got off the weird tied-dotted quarter plus eighth note pulse, everyone seemed to know that I was off - except for me!

Even a super simple tune like "Sabor", with a 2-3 Clave, completely throws me off. This is the version we are doing:


It's not so bad when you stay on one chord, but changing chords while keeping that groove going is just beyond me right now.

Here's another tune, that goes in and out of the clave groove:


I'll often start off correctly but then the percussion comes in and then the piano comes in and it all seems like they're doing something alien and completely different from me so if I listen to them I get thrown off.

Does anyone have any tips for how to internalize this groove? I've spent about 20 hours this weekend on it and I still feel lost and my fingers are almost starting to bleed. Maybe after a thousand more hours?

Is there a particular instrument I should be listening to and using as an "anchor"?

Well this is not an easy song like you say because there are a lot of instruments and parts even if the clave is well heard.

I think you should program yourself a clave and play with it. Try to tap the clave with your foot while playing the tumbao. It took me at least 5 minutes to do it properly. Try tapping the 1&3 then the 2&4 while playing the bassline. The goal is to feel the rhythm no matter what you tap but 2&4 is working everywhere for me.

The groove of the 2nd song is perfect to practice that.

 

[Don Kasper]

I found this book very helpful.

 

[IamGroot]

Get Oscar Stagnaro's biok and do the first 5 or 6 lessons over and over until it clicks. Speaking of click, use a metronome to start off eaxtice at slower speed than the recordings. Also, playing with just the metronome will really sharpen your feel for the clave.

The afro cuban book is nice, but start with Oscar's book. It is the bible like Spin Doctor said

 

[Wood and Wire]

Put your bass down, wait until every has gone out of the house, crank up the stereo, and learn to dance to this music.

Once your butt, and your shoulders are moving right, you'll have a much easier time understanding how to play the music.

 

[Rhythmman535]

Ian Stewart: "The John Benitez Bass Method, Volume 1; Freedom in the Clave'."
THE JOHN BENÍTEZ BASS METHOD, Vol. 1 - Jazz - BassBooks.com

Check out some of Ian's posts here on TB or his web page:
About Ian Stewart

 

[Groove Master]

I found this book very helpful.

View attachment 3159460

Yes this is where a learn about tapping the clave

 

[BassChuck]

To misquote a song: You're looking for the downbeat in all the wrong places".

 

[phillipkregg]

LOL, yeah I feel ya. I've been sort of working through the Latin stuff and it's definitely about precision. You don't get to do your own thing at all rhythm wise. I don't have any advice for you, but I'm interested in hearing what folks who know have to say. If it makes you feel any better, John Patticucci said he had a lot of trouble with it at first. You might want to get Oscar Stagnaro's "Latin Bass Book". It's pretty much the bible.

Thanks! I'll check out that book

 

[phillipkregg]

Well this is not an easy song like you say because there are a lot of instruments and parts even if the clave is well heard.

I think you should program yourself a clave and play with it. Try to tap the clave with your foot while playing the tumbao. It took me at least 5 minutes to do it properly. Try tapping the 1&3 then the 2&4 while playing the bassline. The goal is to feel the rhythm no matter what you tap but 2&4 is working everywhere for me.

The groove of the 2nd song is perfect to practice that.

Well... "easy" in comparison to the other tunes since the structure revolves around just 2 chord changes.

I'm gonna download a Clave app today and play around with it.

 

[phillipkregg]

Put your bass down, wait until every has gone out of the house, crank up the stereo, and learn to dance to this music.

Once your butt, and your shoulders are moving right, you'll have a much easier time understanding how to play the music.

Will do!

 

[phillipkregg]

To misquote a song: You're looking for the downbeat in all the wrong places".

That's pretty much it. Counting does me absolutely no good so far.

The instructor had me stop playing and just find where the 1 is and count. That was no problem, but the bass part doesn't come in on the one. In fact, I couldn't actually count where it came in at, I had to "feel" it. It seems like the "1" was somewhere between the and-of-4 and the actual 1.

So I can count it and I can (sometimes) play it correctly but not both at the same time.

 

[rufus.K]

Learn to play clave first. Forget the bass for awhile

 

[bassbrad]

Learn to play clave first. Forget the bass for awhile

This is also my advice, I took the time to study percussion with Cuban, African and South American percussionists. This significantly informed my bass playing in those styles.
Someday I would love to study Indian and other Asian drumming styles.

 

[mambo4]

So I can count it and I can (sometimes) play it correctly but not both at the same time.

You simply haven't internalized the rhythms yet. You need to spend time on just that.

Try this prescription:

1.) put the bass down, and forget about pitches and harmony for now. Focus on rhythms alone.

2.) count vocally " 1 2 3 4" while clapping the clave.

If that's too hard:
slow down more
isolate the 2 side while vocalizing 4/4
isolate the 3 side while vocalizing 4/4​

keep at it until you can reliably execute this​

3.) Once you can vocalize 4/4 while clapping the clave, switch:
vocalize the clave while clapping 4/4, slowing down as much as needed

4.) count vocally " 1 2 3 4" while clapping the bass tumbao pattern

5.) Once you can vocalize 4/4 while clapping bass tumbao pattern, switch:
vocalize the bass tumbao while clapping 4/4

6.) Now, combine the two: Vocalize bass tumbao pattern while clapping the clave

7.) Vocalize the clave while clapping the bass tumbao rhtyhm

The great thing about vocalizing /clapping is that you can practice at any time, anywhere.
I literally taught myself the bass tumbao while waiting for the bus.


Other things that help greatly:
- learn to read rhythm notation. Notation has precision that our rhythmic awareness may lack.
- learn to play other percussion / rhythm section parts, especially the conga pattern. All the parts interlock, the more you learn the more cues you have.

 

[Spin Doctor]

That's pretty much it. Counting does me absolutely no good so far.

The instructor had me stop playing and just find where the 1 is and count. That was no problem, but the bass part doesn't come in on the one. In fact, I couldn't actually count where it came in at, I had to "feel" it. It seems like the "1" was somewhere between the and-of-4 and the actual 1.

So I can count it and I can (sometimes) play it correctly but not both at the same time.

Hmm, well you can count anything. You are just not familiar with the timing. I think your first move should be to actually learn to count where to come in rather than try to "feel" it. That's a mistake to continue with that.

Edit: Mambo beat me to it with a much better answer.

 

[phillipkregg]

You simply haven't internalized the rhythms yet. You need to spend time on just that.

Try this prescription:

1.) put the bass down

2.) count vocally " 1 2 3 4" while clapping the clave.

If that's too hard:
slow down more
isolate the 2 side while vocalizing 4/4
isolate the 3 side while vocalizing 4/4​

keep at it until you can reliably execute this​

3.) Once you can vocalize 4/4 while clapping the clave, switch:
vocalize the clave while clapping 4/4, slowing down as much as needed

4.) count vocally " 1 2 3 4" while clapping the bass tumbao pattern

5.) Once you can vocalize 4/4 while clapping bass tumbao pattern, switch:
vocalize the bass tumbao while clapping 4/4

6.) Now, combine the two: Vocalize bass tumbao pattern while clapping the clave

7.) Vocalize the clave while clapping the bass tumbao rhtyhm

The great thing about vocalizing /clapping is that you can practice at any time, anywhere.
I literally taught myself the bass tumbao while waiting for the bus.


Other things that help greatly:
- learn to read rhythm notation. Notation has precision that our rhythmic awareness may lack.
- learn to play other percussion / rhythm section parts, especially the conga pattern. All the parts interlock, the more you learn the more cues you have.

Great advice, thanks! I will definitely try this.

 

[dlb1001]

Not surprisingly, there is an app for iOS devices, called Son Rhythm. It has an Afro Latin drum machine, which may prove helpful.

 

[mambo4]

Also the saying is that the bass must always be "correct with the clave"
It took me a few years of playing salsa to unpack this.
After all the clave is a 2 bar pattern , the bass tumbao only 1 bar.

The key is in the 3 side of the clave : the second and last beat of this 3 beat pattern are called "bombo" and "ponche" respectively
"bombo" is the "2 -and" back beat between 2 and 3
"ponche" is the "4" beat.
it is worth leaning the feel of these two beats in isolation vs a 4/4 pattern

the bass tumbao is just those two beats, that is, the last 2 beats on the 3 side of the calve. You must always line those up between the bass and clave.

Like in an improvised funk line you had better come back in on the "1"
in an improvised bass tumbao, you had better come back on "bombo" and "ponche" with the clave.