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How to work together with keys? (or synths?... or organs?)

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Devo-lution

Jun 24, 2009
535
4
#1
Hi y'all

I am in two bands that both feature a guy that plays an instrument that relies on keys. Whether it's a piano, a moog, a korg, a hammond he's playing... it doesn't matter...

We do a lot of improvising and this guy is a classically trained piano player... This sadly means that when he goes into a frenzy solo or something alike, he starts using a lot of bassnotes in his playing and I get the feeling I am being thrown out of the mix.

Also in using effects I find some problems, since sometimes our filters do not cope or our sounds just sound too much the same...

my question:
What are the do's and don'ts when working with a keyman?
Both for me as for him? How to work together on a professional way without this constant strife in the lower frequencies?

I think that a general discussion of this matter can help just about everyone who plays or will play with a keyman in the same band, so let the opinions rain down :p
 
#2
Point out to him that you're the Bass Player in the Band, so the Bass end is your responsibility and he's encroaching your space. Mention that this is a "Band" and not a solo piano gig, so he needs to leave some room for other people in the mix. If he's a "musician" he should "get" where you're coming from.

What do the other people in the band think - is he trampling all over the Guitarist, horns, singers as well ??.

Hopefully you don't need to resort to what a pro Bass Player of my acquaintance said to a pro Keyboard player, also of my aquaintance:

OI, YOU DON'T F**K WITH MY OCTAVE!!
:-)
 
#5
The bass is traditionally an ensemble instrument. Most of us would not be anywhere as bassists without having developed some ensemble skills.

Keys, guitar, etc., are taught as solo instruments, or as instruments that accompany treble instruments / voice. The art of being accompanied is not learned unless they are exposed to an ensemble setting or have a particularly good teacher.

Understand that this is simply a matter of knowledge, training, and habit. You have to sit down with the keys player, and start the standard conversation that you have memorized:

"Don't get me wrong, you are a fine player, but you have been trained as a solo player and this is an ensemble. I suggest that you get some instruction from your teacher on working in an ensemble that has a bassist, and also, listen to recordings of ensembles with instrumentation similar to ours. Meanwhile, a simple rule of thumb is:

"Play like you are wearing handcuffs."

Breaking this habit will not happen right away. The pianist probably relies on the security of knowing where the bass notes are. He or she has to practice a lot in order to overcome this.
 
#6
fdeck said:
The bass is traditionally an ensemble instrument. Most of us would not be anywhere as bassists without having developed some ensemble skills.

Keys, guitar, etc., are taught as solo instruments, or as instruments that accompany treble instruments / voice. The art of being accompanied is not learned unless they are exposed to an ensemble setting or have a particularly good teacher.

Understand that this is simply a matter of knowledge, training, and habit. You have to sit down with the keys player, and start the standard conversation that you have memorized:

"Don't get me wrong, you are a fine player, but you have been trained as a solo player and this is an ensemble. I suggest that you get some instruction from your teacher on working in an ensemble that has a bassist, and also, listen to recordings of ensembles with instrumentation similar to ours. Meanwhile, a simple rule of thumb is:

"Play like you are wearing handcuffs."

Breaking this habit will not happen right away. The pianist probably relies on the security of knowing where the bass notes are. He or she has to practice a lot in order to overcome this.
Click to expand...

I think you are close to where the problem is situated. He is trained as a solo piano player and church organ player and is a teacher in these matters... His group experience is mainly focussed on guitar playing (which he primarily does in my first band)... Only recently he started bringing his synthesizer and his hammond organ which he uses to compose to the band ^^

I was so impressed that I immediately included him in another band of mine. I really love playing with him, but that is the only minor setback.

I told him multiple times to cease his tone-imperialism, but he's not one to take "criticism" lightly and change his way of playing for someone else. He has a mild autistic syndrome and reacted quite verbally agressively to my enquiries :')...

Is it possible to play exactly the same in the same octave with other effects to create some kind of double bass ... bass thingy?
 
#7
Devo-lution said:
I think you are close to where the problem is situated. He is trained as a solo piano player and church organ player and is a teacher in these matters... His group experience is mainly focussed on guitar playing (which he primarily does in my first band)... Only recently he started bringing his synthesizer and his hammond organ which he uses to compose to the band ^^

I was so impressed that I immediately included him in another band of mine. I really love playing with him, but that is the only minor setback.

I told him multiple times to cease his tone-imperialism, but he's not one to take "criticism" lightly and change his way of playing for someone else. He has a mild autistic syndrome and reacted quite verbally agressively to my enquiries :')...

Is it possible to play exactly the same in the same octave with other effects to create some kind of double bass ... bass thingy?
Click to expand...
If you guys are totally in tune and play the same notes. But if he is as headstrong about how he plays as you say, what are the odds he's going to copy what you play vs you end up copying what he plays on bass notes?

Randy
 
#8
steveksux said:
If you guys are totally in tune and play the same notes. But if he is as headstrong about how he plays as you say, what are the odds he's going to copy what you play vs you end up copying what he plays on bass notes?

Randy
Click to expand...

His bass approach is more of a walking bass, which I am not too fond off, so the chances of me copying his basses are quite slim too :p.

He doesn't really see the problem by the way... He has no problem in having two entirely different basses in the same song and he claims to not notice the fact that he blows my bass sound out of the mix (It becomes harder to hear the actual bass guitar).

Well, eventually I think this will be sorted out.

What did work once was putting an octave down on my bass :')
Just going lower than he could go :p
 
#9
Devo-lution said:
His bass approach is more of a walking bass, which I am not too fond off, so the chances of me copying his basses are quite slim too :p.

He doesn't really see the problem by the way... He has no problem in having two entirely different basses in the same song and he claims to not notice the fact that he blows my bass sound out of the mix (It becomes harder to hear the actual bass guitar).

Well, eventually I think this will be sorted out.

What did work once was putting an octave down on my bass :')
Just going lower than he could go :p
Click to expand...

Eh, you aren`t going to get too much lower than a typical 5 string so an octave might not be the best idea. Plus you`ll run the risk of making everything sound bad and then you`ll be the one who gets blamed.
 
#11
Devo-lution said:
I think you are close to where the problem is situated. He is trained as a solo piano player and church organ player and is a teacher in these matters... His group experience is mainly focussed on guitar playing (which he primarily does in my first band)... Only recently he started bringing his synthesizer and his hammond organ which he uses to compose to the band ^^

I was so impressed that I immediately included him in another band of mine. I really love playing with him, but that is the only minor setback.

I told him multiple times to cease his tone-imperialism, but he's not one to take "criticism" lightly and change his way of playing for someone else. He has a mild autistic syndrome and reacted quite verbally agressively to my enquiries :')...

Is it possible to play exactly the same in the same octave with other effects to create some kind of double bass ... bass thingy?
Click to expand...

No.

Read the "girl or band" thread. If he has a disorder, I sympathize, but it could also be that he has in addition developed the habit of being domineering.

Hanging with a band is a musical skill, period. Nothing personal. If he can't hang with a band, then he can't hang with a band, and that is a simple matter of knowledge and training. You can be blunt with him, and let him know that while he is talented, he is not a "good player" outside of his familiar milieu until he can hang with a band.
 
#12
Devo-lution said:
I told him multiple times to cease his tone-imperialism, but he's not one to take "criticism" lightly and change his way of playing for someone else. He has a mild autistic syndrome and reacted quite verbally agressively to my enquiries :')...
Click to expand...

I had a feeling when I read the thread's title that this would be more of a problem then if he was just inexperienced and never worked in a band. Every good musician at one time was an inexperienced musician that didn't know what really fit in best with a certain band or song. We all were there at one time.

It's ALOT tougher to change someone's mind when there's interpersonal and communication issues. There is no really good or clear answer. Somehow, you'll have to convince him of the errs of his ways and/or get him to change. Multiple bass notes don't usually (but not in all musical situations) work well. This is especially true when it's a live setting where you can't tweak the individual instruments frequencies so that they don't run over eachother.

I once was in a band with a drummer who was mildy autistic, or so we thought. He'd never been diagnosed, but there was something certainly off about him and it seemed autistic. It never ever got "good" with him, but got better over time with regards to playing in a style that fit the music better. On every song, he used to overplay like crazy, espeically with the kick drum. He'd often have a "thu-Thump-thu-thu-thu-Thump" kick part, when it really sounded much better with just a simple "Thump . . . Thump . . ."

Here's how I approached it:

First off, never be accusatory with him (or anyone else in the band). It only puts him (and others) on the defensive, and they'll automatically assume that you're just being a jerk and you're wrong. The easiest way to do this is by avoiding the word "you" like the plague. NEVER say something like "You need to stop playing so much with the left hand. It never works.

Second, talk to the other guys in the group to see if they agree with your issue, and get them to back you up. If they don't, then you're stuck in a band that may not have a great collective musical ear. In which case, you're screwed. Move on and put an ad out on Craigslist.

If they all agree, then all of you need to start working on him to get him to stop overplaying. Stop songs in the middle of them during practice. Have everyone get on him about it, not just you.

Lastly, he (like our old drummer) is probably technically awesome, so be sure to boost up his ego when he needs it with some good compliments. He'll probably take more kindly to your words of criticism if he thinks that you also respect his musicianship.

Hope that helps...
 
#14
I`m curious as to how to handle this myself. My guitarist seems pretty gun ho about getting a keys players, and while I can definitely see the benefits I see a lot of potential issues as well.

How do you guys suggest auditioning one? What to look for? How should I approach the topic beforehand?
 
#15
williamk said:
if he plays bass lines all the time, I guess it can be anoying...if it's just during solos, give him his space, just play a "punch" note every other bar or so till the end of his solo, no big deal!
Click to expand...

This probably wouldn't be too much fun for him if the solos last very long. Also, it's probably safe to assume he solos in multiple songs, in which case this approach would probably sound very overdone and tired by the end of the set. It is a great idea though if the circumstances allow ;).
 
#17
We had a keyboard guy sit in with us who had this issue. After the 2nd song our singer(leader) went over and told him "Look he's the bass player not you. You play you stuff without walking all over him or playing basslines". Solved.

The keyboard/guitar player we have now is very experienced in a group setting so their is no problem. He KNOWS where to play and how to fit in his "space" in a group setting.
 
#18
Well, there are only three members of the band... And he is our main melody man. The other guy is a drummer who is also somewhat of a solo-drummer who is (from my point of view) technically awesome. Both are mostly so deep involved in their own playing they don't really check if the basslines come thru well...

The fact is that the drummer is a groove machine who doesn't always pay attention to my notes and stuff, but he's got my groove and therefor our interaction is quite well... When I and the keyboard player talk about having a hard time to play with two basses, he stays out of the discussion.

Like I said, those two are "really good musicians"... but jamming with them can be a pain in the ass since they are both also have the intention of playing really complicated stuff, while I just try to lay down the best groove I can think off. I do notice improvement over time (especially with the drummer) and the keyboard player respects my opinion, so I'll try to convince him to only use his low end occasionally...

Last time I told him he was to steer cleer of basslines he answered this: (Dude, maybe you haven't noticed? I am no mere keyboard player.... I am a piano player... PIANO PLAYER!!!)
 
#19
jmattbassplaya said:
I`m curious as to how to handle this myself. My guitarist seems pretty gun ho about getting a keys players, and while I can definitely see the benefits I see a lot of potential issues as well.

How do you guys suggest auditioning one? What to look for? How should I approach the topic beforehand?
Click to expand...

Well, you'd better know him before hand, 'cause otherwise, you'll have to take what you can get. Finding a good keyboardist is very, very, very tough.

Keyboardists are very rare. Good keyboardists are very, very rare. Good keyboardists who have a good ear for ensemble music or work well in a band are even rarer. They are the most sought after of all the musicians out there.

The chances are that they're already working 2 or 3 other bands, and those bands will be very good bands. Your best bet is to get word of mouth going and meet other keyboardists through mutual bands that you are friends with. Have them sit in with y'all a few times. If things click after that, you can make them more regular, or maybe a full time member of the band.

You can always post a Craigslist ad, or troll some happening jam nights at some bars, but that's a shot in the dark. Also, the really good ones at the jam nights are usually the same working keyboardists who happens to have some free time...

It's almost easier to get one of the guys in the band to start picking up the keyboard, and then have them take the keyboardist role after a few years... That might be easier then finding a good keyboardist.
 
#20
Ubersheist said:
Well, you'd better know him before hand, 'cause otherwise, you'll have to take what you can get. Finding a good keyboardist is very, very, very tough.

Keyboardists are very rare. Good keyboardists are very, very rare. Good keyboardists who have a good ear for ensemble music or work well in a band are even rarer. They are the most sought after of all the musicians out there.

The chances are that they're already working 2 or 3 other bands, and those bands will be very good bands. Your best bet is to get word of mouth going and meet other keyboardists through mutual bands that you are friends with. Have them sit in with y'all a few times. If things click after that, you can make them more regular, or maybe a full time member of the band.

You can always post a Craigslist ad, or troll some happening jam nights at some bars, but that's a shot in the dark. Also, the really good ones at the jam nights are usually the same working keyboardists who happens to have some free time...

It's almost easier to get one of the guys in the band to start picking up the keyboard, and then have them take the keyboardist role after a few years... That might be easier then finding a good keyboardist.
Click to expand...

Well, the guitarist has already found a guy who's heard us play before and has expressed interest in us soooooo.... That said we still haven't played with him yet, but if/when we finally do I want to set the record straight with him from the get-go.
 

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