How to work together with keys? (or synths?... or organs?)

[T-MOST]

As a keybord player he has to realize that he doesn not have to cover the chord down into the bass range. I run into this sometimes in gospel. When it comes to shout or hymns the piano player always lays heavy on the left hand. The only way around it is ask him to lay of the bass (which wont happen if it's not my keyboardist) or for me to just double his left hand. Thats boring and not very creative but it 's easier than clashing bass notes. He has to learn to play pop and rock keys.

 

[Jehos]

Electrodes in the keyboard bench hooked to a pedal by your amp.

Or run him though a high-pass filter. He can play all the gutless low notes he wants then.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Work out the parts with him. Only allow him to improvise on the right hand. When I'm working a keyboard player if we encounter this problem we just split the bassline into two parts so it works like a kind of call and response. He plays half and I play half, or he plays something complementary inbetween what I'm playing. But it's going to take both of you getting over your butthurt and just sitting down like reasonable players and working it out.

 

[Thor]

This topic is coming up more and more. Let's sticky this for
a while.

I was very fortunate in my last band to work with a very
talented keyboardist that had excellent left hand control
and understood that 2 lines in those registers create MUD.

My response to him would have been that if he is a PIANO
PLAYER, he needs neither a bassist or a drummer. If he is
an ensemble player, he will be enhanced by the dynamics of
the group. Without the space, music is just noise.

 

[DesertCreature]

I have less problem with keyboards playing a bass line (sometimes the effect of two bass lines can be good) than I do with them trying to drive the groove. This is usually a problem with hack keyboardists who don't listen to the drummer or bass.

 

[Swingit]

First if you guys are running everything through the PA I'd try to get mix that gives you both some separation so the low end doesn't get all muddied up out front.

As far as on stage goes, you're going to HAVE to sit down with him and explain the problem. Arrange a time when the two of you can get together with your instruments. Have a couple song ideas to use as an example.

I usually take a more laid back, root oriented, approach to playing in bands that have keyboard guys. But Man, I sure know what you're going through.

Sounds like you both get along well. You can work it out.

 

[Goteky45]

i play with a keys in my band and i had this problem in the beggining. first i tried to harmonize with him but he was way to fast. then i strated to listen to some orchestra stuff that played with piano so i could figure what the counter-bass was doing. thats my first advice. make different bass lines. if that doenst fit and he keeps invading his octave, distort ur bass or invade his!

 

[M0ses]

Last time I told him he was to steer cleer of basslines he answered this: "Dude, maybe you haven't noticed? I am no mere keyboard player.... I am a piano player... PIANO PLAYER!!!"

If this ever happened to me, I would do one of two things: get him kicked out of the band, or leave the band. That's it. Lose him or get out. He's clearly not going to accommodate you in any way. He clearly doesn't care about the ensemble sound. He clearly isn't using his ears for anything other than listening to himself.

That's my advice, at least.

 

[IanStephenson]

I think the thread title is slightly missing the problem. The issue isn't keys or synths or organs, or even keyboard players, synth players or organists... its PIANO PLAYERS.

synth/keys/organ players can take the approach of blocking out chords with their left hand, and playing stabs/lead lines with their right (which works fine). Most organ players are going to have the sense to lay off the pedals unless its actually needed.

It's piano players who've been drafted in to a band (cause they can play keyboards right!) who just can't get that it's not their job to play the bass, chords and melody all the time. Left to their own devices the'll upset everyone in a band until they learn to back off.

 

[longfinger]

Hi y'all

I am in two bands that both feature a guy that plays an instrument that relies on keys. Whether it's a piano, a moog, a korg, a hammond he's playing... it doesn't matter...

...
my question:
What are the do's and don'ts when working with a keyman?


I think that a general discussion of this matter can help just about everyone who plays or will play with a keyman in the same band, so let the opinions rain down

So much depends on the context on what's going on musically.
eg. what kind of music your band is playing; what specific songs your band is playing; what keyboard sound is being played (ie. piano, organ, pop synth); what bass sound is being played (ie. electric, acoustic, bow, pizz, slap/pop); and if the parts are arranged and written in advance or improvised on the spot.

How the two will react (three if we add in a guitarist), depends greatly on how each band deals with the above scenarios.



Can you clarify for us, your scenario again?

thanks,

 

[singlemalt]

Try this: Play what he's playing, but drag it or push it a bit. When he bitches about it, ask him who is going to play the bass line, him or you. Point out that you are wearing a bass and maybe it should be you that plays the bass lines.

No? okay, solo over what ever he's doing, if he's going to be so kind as to free you up from your usual duties to become a full blown melodic force! Practice your chords.

Playing in unison sucks, most piano players have pretty generic bass lines. (and don't play them consistently thru verses) A couple tunes a night tops of that junk.

It drives me crazy to hear bass notes I'm not playing that don't really work with the groove coming out of an amp behind me. No need to beat around the bush here, stop the tune, and speak up.

If its piano solo time and he's going to do a walk or boogie left hand, lay out, sip your beer and enjoy his break. Clap and encourage the audience to give it up. There, see, he's a real pianist!

But its been said many times above, good keyboard and piano players know how to play in a group.

If he doesn't get it, get rid of him and take larger cut of the money.

 

[Stumbo]

I suggest recording your rehearsals and gigs. Let him hear what you hear. If he still won't cut the bass, you have a decision to make.

 

[totallyfrozen]

...He has a mild autistic syndrome and reacted quite verbally agressively to my enquiries :')...

Autism? That's a whole other dynamic to the situation. In that case, you can instantly disregard pretty much every reponse that you've received so far (at least all of them I read). When dealing with someone with even mild autism, it's much more than a matter of explaining or getting your point across. They think VERY differently than the rest of us (even though he may seem completely normal and functional). Of course it's all on a scale from mild to severe. Everybody thinks of "Rainman" when they hear autism, but of course your friend is much more mild than that.

My wife is an SLP who works with "Intensive Needs" students all the time. Basically, she said that autistic people violently hate change to their lives or routines. They need things to stay the same to feel safe...things have to be controllable and predictable for them. Changing anything puts them in unfamiliar territory and it can feel very vulnerable and threatening to them. They react to the threat with hostility because they feel scared. My wife says that she's doubts that you will be able to get him to change his playing style since he's being playing that way for years. It's not a matter of him just being an arrogant a-hole or something. For him, it's more like you're asking him to leave everything he knows and move to a foreign country where nobody speaks his language. As hard as it may be to believe (or to take), he CAN'T help it.

Sorry for the complication in your life but it's an opportunity to grow as a person as well as a musician. Only suggestion I have is to educate yourself a little bit about autism and see if you can learn how to effectively communicate with him to get what you want.

 

[Devo-lution]

Late reply on this one... but...

It's getting better and better. We talked a bit and he still plays with two hands most of the time, but he learned to listen to the bass instead of just bombarding the band with his own bas notes. When we go low, we usually play the same riff with different effects or get a call and response thingy going.

And yes, he is a classically trained pianist and it actually took him some trouble to stop playing these low notes all of the time. Solution we sometimes use is having him play two melodies at the same time... one on hammond, one on korg synthesizer.

fyi: people have classified this band as "fusiony, funk and psychedelic"... no idea what would be the exact term.

 

[giacomini]

I started as a classical trained pianist. Then moved to synth. Then moved to bass.

My first band experience was in a Pink Floyd tribute band. There's lots of low range synths going on in PF's songs (think Time), so there went my left hand. I never had issues with our bass player because I did the bass only when it was supposed to be. When there where lead solos to be played I used my left hand to fool around with the mod knobs and pitch bend (hell, the band had 2 guitar players, I didn't need to be comping myself thru solos!). When we played tunes like Money or other Rhodes/Wurlizter/Piano-driven songs I kept the left hand in a mid-keyboard position (above the 12th fret, basswise) and when I did go low, I would hit an octave here and there, but I always cared to be out of the bassist's way.

Another great thing I did back then was to watch my dinamics as well. When my part was just secondary rhythm, I'd low my volume. If I played a solo, volume up.

Regarding piano players I can say it get some practice to play in a band. As a former piano player and a fan of blues and boogie woogie, I was listening to players like Dr. John and others that have a busy left hand work, even when playing in band. That lead me to think I was supposed to do that too, but later on I realized that I was listening to a record and the engineer could have lowered the lows volume... sounds dumb but I never thought about it before I started working in a recording studio. Last year I was asked by a friend to record a piano for a track he was composing, and I did play a blues stile bass on piano, but I really lowered the volume of the left hand so it would fit in with the bass. Sample of that track:

http://sites.google.com/site/ggiacomini/music/01 Turn.mp3

 

[penultimeta]

Since this thread is a sticky, I'll chime in. I'm a classically trained pianist, but decided some time ago that I really dug the bass. I never did take that step to playing guitar. Most piano players are taught the instrument as a solo instrument, which in many contexts, makes us pretty good musicians. However, it can also make us quite arrogant. Young piano players are held by lay society and musical society as "the best" which can create quite a complex in a collaborative setting. We can run over chords, add weird dissonant accidentals (cool when your solo, not so much in a straight ahead blues/funk/soul setting), and (can) assume that the band/ensemble/quartet/etc. is our band/ensemble/quartet/etc. But this can all be trained out. It takes some time, but if the keys player honestly wants to be part of a collaborative musical effort, he'll change his style accordingly.

As far as a pianist being a "busy" player, if it's just during solos it's probably fine as long as his solos are in rhythm, in the right key (which might be obvious, but you'd be surprised...), resolve themselves in a timely manner, and generally fit the sound of the rest of the band. If he/she is running all over everyone in the band all the time, then this needs to be remedied.

A good keys player can add so much fullness to a band and really round it out. But "good" here doesn't mean simply theoretically and technically competent, it means an ability to adapt to the band's sound, change their style accordingly, and, yes, take criticism every once in a while.

How to broach the subject? Be kind (we tend to be a sensitive bunch) and just let him know that what he's doing is screwing with your guys' sound and not allowing you to do your job as a bassist. If he's got the technical chops, then let him know that, but don't kiss his ass. If his technique is weak, praise his sound.

The bottom line is that any kind of musical ensemble is a complicated relationship. Each member has their roles and ought to have a common vision. If a keys player is unwilling to compromise, play his role, and see the vision then it's time to find a new keys player.

 

[eyecandy]

the best teamwork with a keyboard player.. is a bass player should take care of the rythm and low end whilst the keys harmonize..

 

[lindseyp]

Our bassist was joking/complimenting our pianist last week when there was a sudden hole for the bass in the middle of one song. Bassist stopped playing, turned to me and said, "Did you hear that? He finally left me some room!" We all cracked up laughing about it.

 

[Sam577]

I've learnt piano for 5 years (I'm 15) before I and started teaching myself bass, around early January, because I thought it would be a cool second instrument to learn . If he's a 'Piano Player', like he says he is, he should be able to play the roots of the chords or arpeggios he's playing an octave higher without too much trouble, and really, a lot of stuff for piano doesn't use that bottom octave anyway.

Also try present it to him in a way thats more like a compliment, so be all like 'You know I'm the bass player, and like you said, you're a piano player, so I know you're good enough to play some of those low notes higher to give me more room, and to give you more room to play higher harmonic less rhythmic stuff, to make all of us sound better', or something like that.

Edit:

the best teamwork with a keyboard player.. is a bass player should take care of the rythm and low end whilst the keys harmonize..

Pretty much exactly what I mean.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

I guess I am lucky. Our key player is only concerned with the melody or fx and has never tried to cop my lines. He also sings alot of the leads and backups so that keeps him pretty busy.