How would you react to this?

[fdeck]

Taking a broader view, there are lots of stories, of people who are involved in a business, splitting off to form their own business, perhaps taking one or more colleagues with them, and dealing with the same or similar customers. The devil is in the details as to the ethics of it, not to mention the legality. I imagine a lot of "trades" businesses like carpentry and lawn care start this way.

Probably most people would frown on using the former employer's "stuff" to build the new company, where that stuff could include vendor and customer lists, price sheets, design details, manufacturing techniques, and so forth. On the other hand, almost every state guarantees a worker's right to ply their trade, which is in fact why things like non-compete agreements are either un-enforceable or even illegal in some states.

In the absence of written agreements or applicable laws, there's probably no bright line between ethical and unethical behavior in this regard. It sounds like your gut reaction is that the drummer's actions weren't entirely above board. I'll take that at face value. I'm not sure how much leverage you have, just because the music business is pretty loosey goosey.

I've seen similar things happen. I play regularly with a jazz trio that was once the first call rhythm section for a former BL. The drummer decided to start his own band business. On the other hand, none of us had any agreements with the former BL. We were strictly sidemen, and we also worked together on a lot of gigs with other BL's, in a town where all of the working jazz musicians know one another.

Are those musicians ripping you off, or merely plying their trade as they see fit? You have to follow your gut on that one. In my locale, every sideman is constantly networking and looking for business, when they're on any gig. But it works both ways -- they will also recommend players and gig opportunities to the bandleaders. I have a list of "first call" bandleaders to whom I forward requests when somebody is looking for a band.

About upright: There is no rational reason to play upright bass. Doing it solely for business reasons will lead to sorrow.

 

[charlie monroe]

I think the OP missed the mark.

The drummer isn't doing any of this back stabbing and gig sharking.

It's the other bass player (upright guy).

If this drummer only booked one gig in a whole year, he didn't suddenly become ambitious and book up a storm.

The drummer has merely added a new gig where he is also the first call guy.

OP, don't blame the drummer for working and don't call him Judas. Everyone needs to eat.

 

[crguti]

They don't call you back so much because there're better bass players than you. Accept that and move on.

 

[Session1969]

Last I remember , this is America. People can do what they want. If you expected him to book you in return, you should've learned to play the DB. You also make it sound like you provided him with a tremendous amount of pay for a total of 15 shows last year. What was the total pay ? $3k, maybe ? Lighten up.

 

[PauFerro]

Resolution to the problem.....I decided to talk openly with the guy about what was bothering me. Told him it kept coming back over the days and weeks as I tried to just let it go. That I respected our relationship and the work we'd put into the project too much not to share my concerns and let him respond. That I liked him personally, his playing etcetera and didn't want to just stop giving him gigs without a conversation.

At first, he said he saw no conflict of interest. I disagreed that setting up the same kind of band, using the same keyboard player, going after the same kind of clients, and cutting me out of it wasn't cool with him. That relationships require reciprocity.
Mentioned how he came on to these groups as first call with the understanding he would help me book gigs for our groups. It was openly stated in the ad I placed for the position. Also reminded him it was clear that was one reason I brought him on over all the other drummers that just wanted to show up and play.

I also shared that the ratio of gigs Me:Him 15: 1 was way out of balance, and that it bothers me that he's out pitching this other group for gigs, leaving me to sit at home while some other bass player that doesn't refer him gigs at all gets the work. He indicated he had four contracts and that he was going after high end event convention work with this other group in addition to the stuff we normally get. I asked what was wrong with my own playing, and he said nothing was wrong with it. The upright thing was for one gig, and the bar owner was so picky he decided not to pursue it. He denied that he ever said his own group was "just for fun", even though he DID say that. He did say he always wanted his own group, so that was why he did it.

He eventually came around at the end of the conversation, even admitting that he had started ANOTHER jazz group that competes with the quartet I started!

Anyway, after we reasoned a bit, he agreed to quit the quartet. Instead of investing all that time starting up a new band at 3-4 hours a week, just go out and invest 2 hours per week selling the three groups we have together. This means our repertoire gets stronger, we keep the musicians we've already brought up to speed, and the whole project gets stronger. We avoid schedule conflicts, and save me the hassle of finding subs for when he is not available. Also that we avoid flooding the market with competing jazz groups. That's one reason prices come down -- too much supply. We're better off expanding our list of subs than forming competing bands.

The fact that this other bass player has medical problems and is out of the picture was also discussed, and so he said that he would give me all the gigs he had for that guy. The fact that I had just been asked to fill a restaurant with jazz entertainment for the next two months of Saturdays seemed to help.

So, we shall see. It seemed to me he just hadn't thought about the political side of business, the quid pro quo's that tend to dominate business relationships.

We shall see.

 

[schenknasty]

Resolution to the problem.....I decided to talk openly with the guy about what was bothering me. Told him it kept coming back over the days and weeks as I tried to just let it go. That I respected our relationship and the work we'd put into the project too much not to share my concerns and let him respond. That I liked him personally, his playing etcetera and didn't want to just stop giving him gigs without a conversation.

At first, he said he saw no conflict of interest. I disagreed that setting up the same kind of band, using the same keyboard player, going after the same kind of clients, and cutting me out of it wasn't cool with him. That relationships require reciprocity.
Mentioned how he came on to these groups as first call with the understanding he would help me book gigs for our groups. It was openly stated in the ad I placed for the position and it was clear that was one reason I brought him on over all the other drummers that just wanted to show up and play.

I also shared that the ratio of gigs Me:Him 15: 1 was way out of balance, and that it bothers me that he's out pitching this other group for gigs, leaving me to sit at home while some other bass player that doesn't refer him gigs at all gets the work. He indicated he had four contracts and that he was going after high end event convention work with this other group in addition to the stuff we normally get. I asked what was wrong with my own playing, and he said nothing was wrong with it. The upright thing was for one gig, and the bar owner was so picky he decided not to pursue it. He denied that he ever said his own group was "just for fun", even though he DID say that. He did say he always wanted his own group, so that was why he did it.

He eventually came around at the end of the conversation, even admitting that he had started ANOTHER jazz group that competes with the quartet I started! And this one was not even for money, with no gigs on the horizon, playing the same kind of stuff we do.

Anyway, after we reasoned a bit, he agreed to quit the quartet. Instead of investing all that time starting up a new band at 3-4 hours a week, just go out and invest 2 hours per week selling the three groups we have together. This means our repertoire gets stronger, we keep the musicians we've already brought up to speed, and the whole project gets stronger. We avoid schedule conflicts, and save me the hassle of finding subs for when he is not available. Also that we avoid flooding the market with competing jazz groups. That's one reason prices come down -- too much supply. We're better off expanding our list of subs than forming competing bands.

The fact that this other bass player has medical problems and is out of the picture was also discussed, and so he said that he would give me all the gigs he had for that guy. The fact that I had just been asked to fill a restaurant with jazz entertainment for the next two months of Saturdays seemed to help.

So, we shall see. It seemed to me he just hadn't thought about the political side of business, the quid pro quo's that tend to dominate business relationships.

We shall see.

You come off sounding like a complete megalomaniac (just my opinion).

 

[d-dave]

You come off sounding like a complete megalomaniac (just my opinion).

I'm going to be honest with you, that's looking like quite the popular opinion about this particular talkbasser.

 

[d-dave]

Actually, he comes off sounding like a complete [insert words that would be censored and that I don't even use].

 

[carl h.]

Have you bought an upright yet?

 

[PauFerro]

Have you bought an upright yet?

Had a good rehearsal last night where we charted future directions. We talked about some of our personal goals with the band, I decided I would try to move onto upright. This is in spite of the fact that it came out the fact that I play electric is not an issue. It's a bit of a problem because I cart a PA, my two basses, and other stuff in the car, and I don't have much room.

I play fretless, electric, and piccolo so Upright remains as the final frontier. Something I would like to conquer before the last quartile of my life is over

Now I have to educate myself about upright basses. My biggest concern is getting it set up properly. I want a set up where the strings really vibrate against the fingerboard to make that buzz saw sound I love in jazz. Not an isolated thump like I hear on so many basses. Perhaps that's a separate thread in the Upright forum.

I was thinking of this one, or renting one:

http://www.amazon.com/Cecilio-CDB-100-Upright-Double-Adjustable/dp/B003LCY0IM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458677030&sr=8-1&keywords=1/4+size+upright

For me, as long as they are functional, the bass is fine. It has to fit my hands. Every bass I play is 30" scale or less. So a smaller upright, amplified might be a good segue. Not sure. But it's on my list of goals for 2016 that is for sure. I know everyone thinks a 1/2 size or 1/4 sized bass isn't appropriate for professional gigs. But they told me that about 30" basses 25 years ago when I was getting into playing bass. Now, there has been slow acceptance. Further, for me, the playability is critical, as is the sound.

And the learning curve starts

 

[Febs]

Had a good rehearsal last night where we charted future directions. We talked about some of our personal goals with the band, I decided I would try to move onto upright. This is in spite of the fact that it came out the fact that I play electric is not an issue. It's a bit of a problem because I cart a PA, my two basses, and other stuff in the car, and I don't have much room. I may have to rig something up on my roof.

I play fretless, electric, and piccolo so Upright remains as the final frontier. Something I would like to conquer before the last quartile of my life is over

Now I have to educate myself about upright basses. My biggest concern is getting it set up properly. I want a set up where the strings really vibrate against the fingerboard to make that buzz saw sound I love in jazz. Not an isolated thump like I hear on so many basses. Perhaps that's a separate thread in the Upright forum.

I was thinking of this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Cecilio-CDB-100-Upright-Double-Adjustable/dp/B003LCY0IM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458677030&sr=8-1&keywords=1/4+size+upright

For me, as long as they are functional, the bass is fine. It has to fit my hands. Every bass I play is 30" scale or less. So a smaller upright, amplified might be a good segue. Not sure. But it's on my list of goals for 2016 that is for sure.

Read this: Beginners Guide to Buying a Double Bass | TalkBass.com

 

[DWBass]

I'm glad you did have a chance to have a conversation with the guy. In my opinion, what he did was not cool at all. Now everyone here has a right to their opinion of the OP and the situation but the bottom line dude did or attempted to do an underhanded thing. It's one thing to form a band and compete which he has every right to but to use the same musicians potentially causing conflicts with the OP's band. I don't think that is cool at all. But musicians are a funny bunch. I live in an area where cats will play with 10 different bands and not throw bones to anyone who's starving for gigs. Not cool but it is what it is.

 

[PauFerro]

I'm glad you did have a chance to have a conversation with the guy. In my opinion, what he did was not cool at all. Now everyone here has a right to their opinion of the OP and the situation but the bottom line dude did or attempted to do an underhanded thing. It's one thing to form a band and compete which he has every right to but to use the same musicians potentially causing conflicts with the OP's band. I don't think that is cool at all. But musicians are a funny bunch. I live in an area where cats will play with 10 different bands and not throw bones to anyone who's starving for gigs. Not cool but it is what it is.

In the town I grew up in until I was about 40, it was culture that you owed people gigs if they called you. You learned it through osmosis. Someone would book a gig and say "I had flute on lead because I owed him a gig". I learned, without being taught that musicians had expectations for gig sharing in that town.

Makes me wonder how to change the culture in towns like yours DWBass. I think talking about it is important. I could have just let it go and he may not have known about the Quid Pro Quo concept. Musicians talk, so no doubt he will tell other musicians that Pau Ferro expects reciprocity if he's going to give you gigs.

I Also suspect there are a few things you can do to help create a more reciprocal culture locally.

1. When you bring on new players, make sure you really make it clear that you expect reciprocity. In fact, offer gigs on the condition they will do the same for you. That you are looking to set up some mutually beneficial relationships.

2. Don't let it slide when it doesn't happen. They say you get what you expect in life, so if you let it go without talking about it, then you don't communicate expectations very well.

3. I think having a lot of gigs is important. It gives you the cred to share your expectation of reciprocity. If you don't have any gigs, you don't have anything to bring to the table.

4. I think if the top players in town, or people well-known in the jazz community are expecting reciprocity, it tends to cascade through the community too. It wouldn't surprise me if that's the way that culture developed in the town I used to live in until I was 40.

 

[jive1]

The thing that works for me is to have a mindset of abundance. Even though it's not actually the case in most music scenes, I don't like to work out of a mindset of scarcity. IMO, IME, the scarcity mindset doesn't bring out the best in folks, especially band leaders. Some would say I'm delusional, and there's probably truth in it. It probably has cost me business, no doubt about it. But in the end, the business is really about relationships, and goodwill can go a long way beyond a gig. Sure, there are some folks who take advantage of it for their own gain, but there are often more that have no problem scratching your back after you itched theirs. IME, selfish opportunists are discovered pretty quickly and the market will correct them, or they will be relegated to working only with other selfish opportunists.

I do act like there is plenty to go around, and I have no problem referring people to gigs, bands, bookers, etc. If a guy leaves my band to start a new project or join another band, I wish them the best of luck and to contact me if they need a bass player. I don't own anyone in any band, and I consider it an honor that some of these talented cats are willing to work with me. No-one owns me either, and I relish the opportunity to play with different musicians in different genres.

Unless someone cuts off my hands and gives me a frontal lombotomy, they can't take away my talent or ability to make music.
Even if someone takes my idea or concept, they haven't taken away my creativity and wherewithal to create another one.
Even if someone take my players, they haven't taken away my personality which is one reason why other folks will work with me.
Even if someone takes my gig, they haven't taken away my ability to find new leads and opportunities.

That's why I act like there's plenty to go around. Because, when you break out of the scarcity mindset, you'll see more opportunities within your reach. And when you don't have that mindset, good karma generally follows. (At least for me)

 

[fdeck]

You come off sounding like a complete megalomaniac (just my opinion).

To be fair to Pao, in past threads he's mentioned that he teaches business management. So it shouldn't come as a shock that he speaks in business language. While speaking in "corporate-ese" can have the effect of rubbing some people the wrong way, more often than not it's just a habit of speech and not a sign of a deep rooted ideology.

 

[fdeck]

Reciprocity does seem to be the unwritten rule in my locale. Folks who abuse it tend to have a harder time finding gigs.

I avoid problematic situations, simply by not trying to be a bandleader and a sideman at the same time. If somebody tells me that they're looking for a band, I will give them the names of one or two bandleaders. Invariably, a bandleader who gets a referral from me, will hire me for the gig if possible.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

Please speak English. Tacking a ? on some words doesn't make a question.D

Really? That is an interrogative.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

Had a good rehearsal last night where we charted future directions. We talked about some of our personal goals with the band, I decided I would try to move onto upright. This is in spite of the fact that it came out the fact that I play electric is not an issue. It's a bit of a problem because I cart a PA, my two basses, and other stuff in the car, and I don't have much room.

I play fretless, electric, and piccolo so Upright remains as the final frontier. Something I would like to conquer before the last quartile of my life is over

Now I have to educate myself about upright basses. My biggest concern is getting it set up properly. I want a set up where the strings really vibrate against the fingerboard to make that buzz saw sound I love in jazz. Not an isolated thump like I hear on so many basses. Perhaps that's a separate thread in the Upright forum.

I was thinking of this one, or renting one:

http://www.amazon.com/Cecilio-CDB-100-Upright-Double-Adjustable/dp/B003LCY0IM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458677030&sr=8-1&keywords=1/4+size+upright

For me, as long as they are functional, the bass is fine. It has to fit my hands. Every bass I play is 30" scale or less. So a smaller upright, amplified might be a good segue. Not sure. But it's on my list of goals for 2016 that is for sure. I know everyone thinks a 1/2 size or 1/4 sized bass isn't appropriate for professional gigs. But they told me that about 30" basses 25 years ago when I was getting into playing bass. Now, there has been slow acceptance. Further, for me, the playability is critical, as is the sound.

And the learning curve starts

An eub might satisfy your needs. In spite of what some may think, the desire of many bandleaders for a string bass is about the sound and not a visual thing. There are a lot of tonal possibilities besides and between thump and buzz. Have fun on your quest.

 

[PauFerro]

I got so busy with gigs I never did have time to get an upright. I got asked to be the booking agent for a restaurant where I rotate all four of my groups, as well as some other local acts every week. Plus I have been marketing the restaurant.

So I've been busy every Saturday night for the last 10 weeks, and this will continue -- on top of all the corporate work I've been doing. The drummer in question has quit his other jazz bands, and seems to like the lack of hassle associated with being in so many different bands. He's even helped me out when I've been REALLY busy and couldn't do one of my own gigs. He found someone to sub for me twice now at my own gigs due to work conflicts.

Also cool is the fact that he loves my original piccolo bass music and wants me to integrate it into this music festival he booked in his parallel band.

In our conversation recently. he said he wants to be "captain of his own ship". So, when he books a gig, I behave like a sideman and simply follow his instructions. The other day he asked me to collaborate with the keyboard player on a set list, to bring my piccolo bass so we can do some of the original tunes I wrote at the festival, and gave criteria for the types of standards we should do at the festival. I would have done it differently but that's cool -- if it helps him feel like a band leader, I'm good with it.

I think this gives him the sense of ownership that he wants which also helps the relationship.

So far this has worked out great. I added four gigs to my schedule as a sideman, kept the relationship intact, and increased his gigs at the same time. Everyone is a winner. That's a version of the abundance mentality Jive may have been talking about.

Then he asked to be part of a corporate show act. I had to decline because I'm too busy, but he's been giving me lots of opportunity lately. I'm so glad I talked to him first.

As someone said in an earlier thread, "imagination can be worse than reality". Most of you thought I should just move him down in the depth chart or sever the relationship. Talking to him about my concerns actually worked out pretty well. Thanks to the people who suggested that. As you can see, I originally thought I would just give him the existing gigs, and stop calling him for new work. But I decided to talk to him instead. So, just because someone seems set in a certain decision path, doesn't mean they stick with it when it comes time to act.

 

[Biggbass]

I'd start looking for a replacement. The Ojays sang about people like this.
"they smile in your face...all the time they wanna take your place!"