HPF vs Parametric EQ for controlling rumble w/Streamliner and Thunderchild?

[steve_rolfeca]

Steve, thank you very much for sharing your experience with Empress EQ and Streamliner!
If you don't mind, I would like to ask you, do you power it with 9V or do you supply higher voltage? What about pedal headroom when used in STL FX loop (cca +4dBu full). It is necessary to apply its input pad?

I have yet to delve deeper into the gain staging issues. I have a Dunlop 18V wall wart on the way, but I'm using a 9V adapter for now.

I was in a rush and so for the gig (pedal in the effects loop), I engaged the Empress' input pad, and used the Boost control for makeup gain. The Empress has a 3-stage pad, so it's fairly easy to match levels. With the boost button out and Gain and Volume at noon on the SL900, it was easy to get equal levels (EQ vs bypass) without clipping or undue noise.

I'm not so sure about the Streamliner power amp input needing +4dBU for full output. At 9V, using the Empress as a front end, I could drive the Streamliner hard, using just the ParaEQ's boost control. That's either a surprising amount of signal out of 9V, or a surprising amount of sensitivity on the part of the Streamliner.

One of the cool features of the Empress, is that it has internal adjustments, to accommodate a range of PS voltages from 9-24V. I imagine that if you wanted equal levels while driving the front end of the Streamliner into clipping, you'd probably need a higher voltage PS for the ParaEQ, to avoid clipping the pedal.

I'll update once the Dunlop 18V PS arrives.

 

[rpsands]

Hey Steve, can you narrow down the range you're not liking? I'm curious if it's closer to 60 or 50hz. I believe Duke publishes the tuning frequency so I can extrapolate quite a bit about what you might not be liking based on that.

* one good way of doing it would be to use a laptop and one of those sine wave generator plugins. I've used the NCH tone gen in the past successfully.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Hey Steve, can you narrow down the range you're not liking? I'm curious if it's closer to 60 or 50hz. I believe Duke publishes the tuning frequency so I can extrapolate quite a bit about what you might not be liking based on that.

* one good way of doing it would be to use a laptop and one of those sine wave generator plugins. I've used the NCH tone gen in the past successfully.

No fine Hz markings on the Empress. My Yamaha DAW uses fixed steps for setting the EQ frequencies, so this isn't super-exact, but using a really narrow Q, the offending frequency was at 53Hz, which is very close to the TCAF's port tuning (51Hz IIRC?).

If I boost that frequency with the Empress on its narrowest Q, when I play through the am, I get an out-of-tune flubbery noise on the bottom three strings of my fiver, even at low volume. So yeah, it does seem to be port tuning-related. But Duke already indicated this in a PM.

BTW, did I mention that I am perilously close to OCD about this sort of stuff, and the effect is really, really subtle? There's actually a lot less boom and mud going on with the Thunderchild, than with any of the mass-market cabs I've owned...

 

[agedhorse]

The Streamliner is +4dBu input sensitivity on the fx return, give or take (it may be closer to +2dBu in reality but close enough for this discussion) so IF the pedal is designed using "rail to rail" and good dynamic range considerations internally, a 9V power supply can be expected to get ~8Vp-p or roughly +6 to +8dBu and may work fine provided your gain staging is very well executed. It doesn't leave much margin for error however.

Also, a technical disclaimer... It's possible to use a 9 volt supply and generate using switchmode components +/-12 volt or +/-15 volt power supply rails and +24dBu MOL. It's not common, but I did work on a product that did exactly this for another company a few years back. I do not know if your particular device might do this.

 

[msmucr]

I have yet to delve deeper into the gain staging issues. I have a Dunlop 18V wall wart on the way, but I'm using a 9V adapter for now.

I was in a rush and so for the gig (pedal in the effects loop), I engaged the Empress' input pad, and used the Boost control for makeup gain. The Empress has a 3-stage pad, so it's fairly easy to match levels. With the boost button out and Gain and Volume at noon on the SL900, it was easy to get equal levels (EQ vs bypass) without clipping or undue noise.

I'm not so sure about the Streamliner power amp input needing +4dBU for full output. At 9V, using the Empress as a front end, I could drive the Streamliner hard, using just the ParaEQ's boost control. That's either a surprising amount of signal out of 9V, or a surprising amount of sensitivity on the part of the Streamliner.

One of the cool features of the Empress, is that it has internal adjustments, to accommodate a range of PS voltages from 9-24V. I imagine that if you wanted equal levels while driving the front end of the Streamliner into clipping, you'd probably need a higher voltage PS for the ParaEQ, to avoid clipping the pedal.

I'll update once the Dunlop 18V PS arrives.

That looks very good. Thank you for information Steve.

Also, a technical disclaimer... It's possible to use a 9 volt supply and generate using switchmode components +/-12 volt or +/-15 volt power supply rails and +24dBu MOL. It's not common, but I did work on a product that did exactly this for another company a few years back. I do not know if your particular device might do this.

Andy, i've recalled, i also saw few circuits, which employs those DC/DC regulated converters (some LM National ICs, if i remember). I haven't used it for any of my constructions and don't know particular quirks, but it seems, that it is quite nice way for increase of rail voltage when necessary.

Michal

 

[agedhorse]

Andy, i've recalled, i also saw few circuits, which employs those DC/DC regulated converters (some LM National ICs, if i remember). I haven't used it for any of my constructions and don't know particular quirks, but it seems, that it is quite nice way for increase of rail voltage when necessary.

Michal

They can be, of course noise managment of the switching converters is something that needs good attention. Take a look at some of the parts Maxon offers... boggles the mind!

 

[sunbeast]

Thank you Sunbeast,
i think it will work as you described (If it will be necessary). I don't have experience with Empress' EQ and forgot, that it have separate switch for boost. Without that if you bypass the EQ, volume level will be significantly dropped.

Cool.

EDIT.. Sorry i've read manual, and it seems, that bypass switch bybasses both boost and EQ. So it will work but with volume drop.. I hope, that it won't be necessary.

Michal

Ah I see- I didn't realize you were asking about using the ParaEQ as a switchable tone that would balance equally with the bypassed tone. My experience with the ParaEQ is similar to Steve's- I only used a 9 volt power supply and at times would hit the pedal with a powerfully boosted signal, and never heard any audible clipping from the pedal as long as I had the Input Pad of the pedal switched on (I could hear clipping without the Input Pad with a moderately boosted active signal however).

The original ParaEQ had only one bypass footswitch, so the "Boost" was always on with the EQ, and the newer units have two footswitches- one for complete bypass and one for the Boost. Mine was the single footswitch version, and the newer version doesn't really make much sense to me- as there is not a second volume control for matching volumes with just the EQ engaged (since the EQ section itself is capable of massive gain boosts and cuts vs. the bypassed signal), using the Boost as a volume control would likely be necessary anyway to control the affect of the EQ...

 

[steve_rolfeca]

The original ParaEQ had only one bypass footswitch, so the "Boost" was always on with the EQ, and the newer units have two footswitches- one for complete bypass and one for the Boost.

...the newer version doesn't really make much sense to me- as there is not a second volume control for matching volumes with just the EQ engaged (since the EQ section itself is capable of massive gain boosts and cuts vs. the bypassed signal), using the Boost as a volume control would likely be necessary anyway to control the affect of the EQ...

I'm with you. For my purposes, I don't expect to be turning the boost on and off.

I can see why Empress added a boost switch on the second version, though- it's marketed as a general purpose unit, and I can see the boost switch being popular with guitarists.

 

[msmucr]

They can be, of course noise managment of the switching converters is something that needs good attention. Take a look at some of the parts Maxon offers... boggles the mind!

Yeah.. i spent yesterday evening with reading of datasheets and application notes at Maxim webpage.. Thank you for tip Andy.
It seems, i have few candidates for traditional Christmas buy from Mouser..

The original ParaEQ had only one bypass footswitch, so the "Boost" was always on with the EQ, and the newer units have two footswitches- one for complete bypass and one for the Boost. Mine was the single footswitch version, and the newer version doesn't really make much sense to me- as there is not a second volume control for matching volumes with just the EQ engaged (since the EQ section itself is capable of massive gain boosts and cuts vs. the bypassed signal), using the Boost as a volume control would likely be necessary anyway to control the affect of the EQ...

Thanks for description, that is manual passage, which wasn't completely clear to me. In manual is description, that one footswitch is boost and second is true bypass for ParaEQ (which is confusingly name of whole pedal), so i thought that it completely bypasses everything (EQ, boost and pad).. also that emphasize on "True" bypass lead me to this.
Anyway, if it is possible to pad input and compensate that drop with boost without internal clipping, it will be fine. Both You and Steve confirmed it, perfect.

Michal

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...in manual is description, that one footswitch is boost and second is true bypass for ParaEQ (which is confusingly name of whole pedal), so i thought that it completely bypasses everything (EQ, boost and pad).. also that emphasize on "True" bypass lead me to this.
Anyway, if it is possible to pad input and compensate that drop with boost without internal clipping, it will be fine. Both You and Steve confirmed it, perfect.

Actually, i don't think either of us have verified clip-free operation at 9V under ALL conditions.

Just to clarify:
- The Boost knob is boost ONLY. If you need to lower the output level when using heavy EQ boosts, you do it by engaging the input pad, not by turning the Boost knob down.
- The Boost footswitch turns the boost on and off, but is only active when the pedal is "on".
- The Bypass footswitch is true bypass, and takes the whole unit out of the signal chain.

The boost cct has a full 30dB available, so even when cutting heavily with EQ, you can still achieve unity gain between EQ and bypass. However, the input pad has a maximum value of only 12dB, so if you're slamming the front end of the amp really hard, you might still need more headroom than a 9V supply could handle.

This is where the 18V capability would come in handy.

 

[agedhorse]

It seems, i have few candidates for traditional Christmas buy from Mouser..

You too? I love Christmas shopping at Mouser and DigiKey!!!

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Steve, thank you very much for sharing your experience with Empress EQ and Streamliner!

...do you power it with 9V or do you supply higher voltage? What about pedal headroom when used in STL FX loop (cca +4dBu full). It is necessary to apply its input pad? I'm asking, because I have experience, that only few instrument EQ pedals handle these levels without internal clipping...

So, my Dunlop 18V wall-wart arrived yesterday, and there were some interesting developments on the gain-staging front: Running at 18V in the Streamliner's effects loop, the ParaEQ clips on peaks whenever I push the gain button in (gain at 10 o'clock, volume at 1 o'clock). This seemed pretty weird, given that it was rock-solid at 9V. In the end, it turned out that the un-regulated 300ma Zoom adapter I was using produces about 13V when powering the ParaEQ. So I had actually been running the ParaEQ at 13VDC with it set for 9V. When I reset the DIP switches in the ParaEQ for 12-17V and used the Zoom adapter again, I got clipping on peaks, same as with the Dunlop adapter.

I tried both settings on the input pad, but as long as the pedal was in the effects loop, I couldn't find a way to use the Streamliner's overdrive without "over-volting" the ParaEQ. Thankfully, exceeding the ParaEQ's recommended voltage by 2V doesn't seem to have done any harm, but I can't see Empress being OK with this. I've emailed them about it, and we'll see what they have to say.

I never use the Streamliner with the gain button in, so for my purposes the ParaEQ works just as well whether it's placed in front of the amp, or in the effects loop. Still, distortion fans would have to check this out for themselves.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

FYI, I tried gigging the Streamliner/Thunderchild combo without the ParaEQ on the weekend, and it still didn't do it for me, at least in a acoustic duo setting. In order to get the low end where I want it, I have to cut the bass and low mids back to 9 o'clock or less, and that makes it sound a bit hollow and gutless.

Using a mild medium-width cut on the ParaEQ at around 50Hz, allows me to turn the bass on the Streamliner back up to 10 or 11 o'clock and frees up the mid control for other purposes, which seems to be a much happier situation. I still get all of that chewy Streamliner goodness in the mids and highs, but with the tighter low end that I'm looking for.

All of this is IMO and IME, but I've realized that at least for me, this isn't just a Thunderchild thing. I've tried the same settings with my Flite 103W, and with a pair of Beyerdynamic cans plugged into the headphone output. In both situations, I prefer the sound of the Streamliner with the ParaEQ engaged...

 

[KJung]

FYI, I tried gigging the Streamliner/Thunderchild combo without the ParaEQ on the weekend, and it still didn't do it for me, at least in a acoustic duo setting. In order to get the low end where I want it, I have to cut the bass and low mids back to 9 o'clock or less, and that makes it sound a bit hollow and gutless.

Using a mild medium-width cut on the ParaEQ at around 50Hz, allows me to turn the bass on the Streamliner back up to 10 or 11 o'clock and frees up the mid control for other purposes, which seems to be a much happier situation. I still get all of that chewy Streamliner goodness in the mids and highs, but with the tighter low end that I'm looking for.

All of this is IMO and IME, but I've realized that at least for me, this isn't just a Thunderchild thing. I've tried the same settings with my Flite 103W, and with a pair of Beyerdynamic cans plugged into the headphone output. In both situations, I prefer the sound of the Streamliner with the ParaEQ engaged...

+1 Like many pieces of great gear, that combination just doesn't really work, and once you get to the point of adding external pedals to try to 'make it what it isn't', you are usually going down a frustrating road.

We had a small GTG yesterday, and most are still amazed by the Thunderchild/F500 rig.... amazingly even, punchy, deep and loud. That rare (very rare) combination of a rig that is loud, accurate, but still 'musical' versus sterile and clinical. Nice warmth and smoothness, big low end, and shocking volume for its size. I would think you would be better off with virtually any other head than the Streamliner with that cab. DON'T punt the cab... swap the head!

I also continue to grow in my love for the Streamliner and the 15/6 cabs (in this case, a fEarful). AMAZING depth without any tub or bloom, and that super duper mid driver provides plenty of brightness. In a comparison with the Mesa M6, the Thunderchild was more controlled down low (seems that mesa has no hi passing at all.... massive sub bass), a warmer, sweeter tone, and with a significant boost to the upper mids, with bass and treble flat, the tone approaches the bright grind of the M6 (not quite, but that is a good thing for me).

Mix and match!

 

[Tunaman]

Warm cab & warm Streamliner = no go... I'd just use the poweramp in & plug in your favorite hi-fi preamp or EQ pedal with that cab...

You may need to sell either the cab or the Streamliner... dude, you tried !

 

[JxBass]

FYI, I tried gigging the Streamliner/Thunderchild combo without the ParaEQ on the weekend, and it still didn't do it for me, at least in a acoustic duo setting. In order to get the low end where I want it, I have to cut the bass and low mids back to 9 o'clock or less, and that makes it sound a bit hollow and gutless.

All of this is IMO and IME, but I've realized that at least for me, this isn't just a Thunderchild thing. I've tried the same settings with my Flite 103W, and with a pair of Beyerdynamic cans plugged into the headphone output. In both situations, I prefer the sound of the Streamliner with the ParaEQ engaged...

I agree.

 

[msmucr]

So, my Dunlop 18V wall-wart arrived yesterday, and there were some interesting developments on the gain-staging front: Running at 18V in the Streamliner's effects loop, the ParaEQ clips on peaks whenever I push the gain button in (gain at 10 o'clock, volume at 1 o'clock).

This seemed pretty weird, given that it was rock-solid at 9V. In the end, it turned out that the un-regulated 300ma Zoom adapter I was using produces about 13V when powering the ParaEQ. So I had actually been running the ParaEQ at 13VDC, with the internal DIP switches set for 9-11V.

Thankfully, exceeding the ParaEQ's recommended voltage limit by 2V doesn't seem to have done any damage. Still, I wouldn't want to do that all the time. When I set the DIP switches in the ParaEQ for 11-17V and use the Zoom adapter, I get clipping on peaks, same as with the Dunlop adapter.

I fooled around with various pad settings on the Empress pedal, but as long as I was driving the Streamliner preamp hard with the gain button in, I couldn't avoid getting at least occasional clipping. This means that if you want over-driven sounds from the Streamliner, you have to take the ParaEQ out of the effects loop, and put it in front of the preamp to avoid clipping the pedal.

This is no big deal for me. With the gain button out, the ParaEQ works a treat in the effects loop, and I'm not interested in overdriven bass sounds. It's a drag for fuzz bass fans, though, as they usually want tone shaping AFTER their distortion.

I've emailed Empress about this, and we'll see what they have to say.

Steve, thanks for update. Interesting findings with 18V. I'm wondering, about dip-switch function in circuit.. Usually is not necessary to adjust let's say bias of opamps with change of supply voltage.. Or maybe it use some kind of regulator with different setting for voltage ranges.. Just curious, what it switches to behave like that

Ayway, I'm exploring ParaEQ as option for friend's Streamliner rig, he use preamp levels in clean range (about same as you) and never engages gain button for intentional overdrive, so i think, it will be fine for his particular freq shaping usage. I've pointed him to ParaEQ direction, so we'll see.

Have a nice day

Michal

 

[steve_rolfeca]

…once you get to the point of adding external pedals to try to 'make it what it isn't', you are usually going down a frustrating road.
...you would be better off with virtually any other head than the Streamliner with that cab. DON'T punt the cab... swap the head!

Warm cab & warm Streamliner = no go...
...You may need to sell either the cab or the Streamliner...

I won't be punting the Thunderchild OR the Streamliner any time soon. Carrying a single compact pedal isn't an issue for me: If Nathan East can put up with the “inconvenience” of using a Yamaha NE-1 to fine-tune his tone, who am I to argue?

Besides, I went on another gear adventure yesterday, and nothing came close to the Streamliner/Thunderchild/ParaEQ combination:

Amp-wise, I started out with the Genz Shuttle Max 12.0 and 9.2. Nice, but still no go. BTW, if pairing the SL900 with the ParaEQ sounds too complicated, don’t even look at the Max. 20 knobs and 8 buttons on the front panel alone, and still no Q control for the parametrics?

I also revisited the Shuttle 9.0, TC RH450, Markbass LMIII and LM250, SWR Studio 220, and the Mesa Walkabout. All nice amps, but all of them left me feeling like something was missing.

In contrast, the Streamliner’s simple front end is a breeze to use, now that I have the ParaEQ to tame the low end. I seem to have settled on a single broad cut, centered at around 100Hz. It sounds much more musical than the drastic settings I was originally using on the amp itself.

I also had the chance to compare the Thunderchild to various cabs, including a Mesa Scout 15, TC RS210, Ashdown 4*8, and Genz 410 XB3. The Genz had the most “slam”, and the Mesa the nicest tone, but none of them could hold a candle to the Thunderchild.

Obviously, this is all IME and IMO, but the Streamliner / Thunderchild / ParaEQ combo is extremely flexible, plays louder than I need, and sounds exactly the way I want. I still have some lingering curiosity about the latest AI Clarus, but otherwise, I am done with amp and cab GAS for now.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

OK, found a new and unexpected way to control the low end and overall balance of the Thunderchild/Streamliner combo last night, with no HPF or EQ involved:

I just flopped the cab over on its side and tilted it back a little, using a spare DI box. I don't know what that does to floor coupling, but I got a tight, articulate tone with minimal EQ. I kept the ParaEq on for a very slight bass rolloff and a tiny bit of push at 600 and 2.5K, but it actually sounded fine with the pedal bypassed.

I think that part of the improvement might have been due to orienting the horn sideways, since that makes it a 90 by 60 horn, instead of 60 by 90. But I don't think that would fully explain what happened in the bass and low mids...

 

[Tunaman]

Amp-wise, I started out with the Genz Shuttle Max 12.0 and 9.2. Nice, but still no go.

What didn't the 9.2 do for ya? Mine is coming in soon & I've had the 12.0 & liked it...especially with warmer cabs.
I love the tube & FET channel so the diversity is there.. but what tone couldn't you get? The Streamliner cushy upper mids?