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Double Bass Hybrid Shen vs. Carved Shen

#21
Thanks Sam. I still think @Sam Sherry 's signature could be made into a T-shirt that every bass player could wear, and wear proudly: "Inadvertent Microtonalist". It's just the nature of the beast.

Regarding pizzicato intonation, I practice calibrating with drones in multiple keys on a daily basis as a warm up. And I plan to pick up the bow for real in 10-12 years if I am fortunate enough to be able to retire before I stop breathing. But I want to throw another idea that is -hopefully- not a grenade into the mix:

I don't think arco intonation and pizz intonation are the same animal, much as I don't think that playing BG and playing DB are the same animal. Further, I think they should be considered and practiced separately. Here's why:

The pizz amplitude envelope starts loud and then decays from there. The pizz intonation envelope starts sharp and then goes flat from there as the excursion of the string dies down.

The arco amplitude envelope is entirely dependent on bow speed, angle, and pressure, and can change at any time during any sustained note. The pitch envelope shares the same characteristics assuming the stop point doesn't move. Dealing with these variables, to me, makes playing in these two manners different experiences. I'll leave it there unless anyone wants to spin that off into a separate thread topic.

Back on topic of the thread, for pizz I was told by a very prominent luthier that my current hybrid bass was perfect for what I do, and that they would not recommend that I bother considering trying to "move up" to a fully carved bass. The same person mentioned that if I planned to spend meaningful time with the bow, it would be a completely different story. I appreciated their honesty and candor and took that message to heart. For this reason, I plan - god willing and the creek don't rise - to retire with my current bass as my main pizz bass for life, and to look for a carved bass to begin my journey with the bow if and when I am lucky enough to reach that point.
 
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#23
I know it’s a zombie thread, but I’ve been playing on a Shen SB-180 hybrid for a little over 5 years now and it has grown into a fairly nice bass. Especially since I’ve been religiously practicing about 90% of with the bow the last 2 years. It has definitely mellowed out the sound a bit. Still it’s not as warm as a carved bass, much more on the punchy spectrum sound wise. One of my good friends calls it a unicorn bass though because apparently to a lot of people it’s one of those basses that shouldn’t sound as good as it does. I’ve been slowly saving up for a carved bass and will hopefully have enough funds in a year or so to get myself a much nicer bass.
 
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#24
I’ve been fortunate to own and play a carved Shen Rogeri since 2015, bought from Mark Leue in MA. Coming from a ply bass, I have much appreciated the volume and heft of sound this thing puts out in an orchestra. To use the ‘cannon’ analogy, this thing is a Howitzer.

It’s a double-edged sword, though. Occasionally I find that big, powerful, spreading low end that I love when playing in the section can be a tad bit much on the band stand, and I wish I had a bass with more ‘cut’ than ‘boom’. Even with brighter steel strings I’ve never been able to tame that element of the voice of this instrument. The hybrid Shens I’ve played, however, typically have had the sweet high end of a carved top but with less pronounced bass - something that might be preferred in a jazz context. Mark had some of the 190 (ply-back) Rogeris in stock when I bought mine, and this was the most obvious tonal difference between the two.
 
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#25
I too, practice to a drone when working scales...best move I have done, plus I was born with pretty near perfect pitch (it's a curse more than a blessing. Trust me). Playing against a drone has been a healthy reinforcement.
 
#29
VictorW126 said:
What is a "drones in multiple keys"? I still do not understand the language very well, although I have an excellent mark in the English when studying at the magistracy and good in postgraduate studies (not music education). :help:
Click to expand...

Victor, Drone = pedal note, a single note on bottom of rest of the music that goes on and on. Multiple = More than one of... So, drones in multiple keys = Practising stuff on top of single notes, to fine tune the intonation.
 
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#31
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Thanks Sam. I still think @Sam Sherry 's signature could be made into a T-shirt that every bass player could wear, and wear proudly: "Inadvertent Microtonalist". It's just the nature of the beast.

Regarding pizzicato intonation, I practice calibrating with drones in multiple keys on a daily basis as a warm up. And I plan to pick up the bow for real in 10-12 years if I am fortunate enough to be able to retire before I stop breathing. But I want to throw another idea that is -hopefully- not a grenade into the mix:

I don't think arco intonation and pizz intonation are the same animal, much as I don't think that playing BG and playing DB are the same animal. Further, I think they should be considered and practiced separately. Here's why:

The pizz amplitude envelope starts loud and then decays from there. The pizz intonation envelope starts sharp and then goes flat from there as the excursion of the string dies down.

The arco amplitude envelope is entirely dependent on bow speed, angle, and pressure, and can change at any time during any sustained note. The pitch envelope shares the same characteristics assuming the stop point doesn't move. Dealing with these variables, to me, makes playing in these two manners different experiences. I'll leave it there unless anyone wants to spin that off into a separate thread topic.

Back on topic of the thread, for pizz I was told by a very prominent luthier that my current hybrid bass was perfect for what I do, and that they would not recommend that I bother considering trying to "move up" to a fully carved bass. The same person mentioned that if I planned to spend meaningful time with the bow, it would be a completely different story. I appreciated their honesty and candor and took that message to heart. For this reason, I plan - god willing and the creek don't rise - to retire with my current bass as my main pizz bass for life, and to look for a carved bass to begin my journey with the bow if and when I am lucky enough to reach that point.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this, Chris. It's timely for two reasons. I just picked up a Shen 190 to replace a fully carved Chinese bass - well set up, beautiful sounding bass bowed but not very loud and articulate pizzicato. The Shen Hybrid seems much better suited to the real-world playing that I do (bluegrass/jam band, jazz guitar trio). Second, I've really been struggling with the arco vs pizzicato practice. For the past few weeks, I'v focused primarily on pizzicato practice, mainly because I was on a trip for a month and didnt play at all. Seemed to me that the road to getting my hands back in shape was better accomplished by limiting my arco playing, since I needed to ensure that my right had could handle 3-hour gigs (I have 2 coming up this weekend). I found that focusing on both intonation and right hand tone by practicing almost all pizzicato seemed to work better for me overall, rather than doing my warmups, scales and arpeggios with the bow. I'm planning to continue mostly pizz for a while and see how it goes. If I were able to double my practice time, I might keep doing both but at 1-1.5 hrs/day, seems like pizzicato only is the better path for me.
 
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#32
@bherman I don't want to re-ignite the whole intonation debate here; this has never been my intention. But I do stand by my belief that arco intonation and pizzicato intonation are physically two different animals, and should be treated as such. While it may be true that players who have arguably good intonation in one sphere tend to carry that over into the other, I would attribute that to players who actively listen and adjust well in both respective spheres.
 
#33
Chris Fitzgerald said:
@bherman I don't want to re-ignite the whole intonation debate here; this has never been my intention. But I do stand by my belief that arco intonation and pizzicato intonation are physically two different animals, and should be treated as such. While it may be true that players who have arguably good intonation in one sphere tend to carry that over into the other, I would attribute that to players who actively listen and adjust well in both respective spheres.
Click to expand...
Thanks Chris , I don’t take it as such and frankly, it doesn’t bother me if some get their noses in a twit over this. I am just a lowly bass player looking for the best way to advance my art. If practicing with a bow is the bee’s knees I’d do it. But as someone whose day-to-day playing does not involve bowing (except for the occasional crescendo ending to a tune) then I am not going to focus on it unless it clearly helps my quest to wrestle this instrument to the ground.
 

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