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Hydrogen Cars

#41
Chebass88 said:
All of that said, gasoline is still exceptionally cheap. Even at $2.59/gallon (what I paid yesterday in NJ) - it is not enough to convince people to drive conservatively, let alone buy a new car with relatively unknown technology (yes, fuel cells and batteries have existed for years, but not as prime movers for millions of automobiles).
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Very US-centric perspective. Most other first-world countries' gas prices are between two and three times higher than they are in the US, and even higher in some places. The cost savings for hydrogen cars outside the US would be significantly higher, especially if home electrolysis takes off. This is probably why more "green" transport research happens outside the US. With gas prices that cheap, people don't have a lot of incentive to change.
 
#42
i've thought for years that diesel-electric hybrids are a great short-term treatment for this problem of sprawl...the technology is there and makes a lot of sense for passenger vehicles

the thing about electric cars is that many parts of the world are still producing a lot of electricity by burning coal--sure, it sounds and feels clean to drive one, but that electricity comes from somewhere, and presently, not enough of it is from renewable sources like wind and hydro, imo

there were operating hydrogren fuel-cell cars being built in the engineering department when i was in school 10 years ago--as mentioned, there are evidently some lofty challenges, or this would be closer to reality by now
 
#43
Rusty Chainsaw said:
Very US-centric perspective. Most other first-world countries' gas prices are between two and three times higher than they are in the US, and even higher in some places. The cost savings for hydrogen cars outside the US would be significantly higher, especially if home electrolysis takes off. This is probably why more "green" transport research happens outside the US. With gas prices that cheap, people don't have a lot of incentive to change.
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taxation as an incentive to curb unwanted behavior--pros and cons to this approach
 
#44
Rusty Chainsaw said:
Very US-centric perspective. Most other first-world countries' gas prices are between two and three times higher than they are in the US, and even higher in some places. The cost savings for hydrogen cars outside the US would be significantly higher, especially if home electrolysis takes off. This is probably why more "green" transport research happens outside the US. With gas prices that cheap, people don't have a lot of incentive to change.
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Meaning that, most likely, it will be a foreign country that ends up developing the best alternative fuel vehicle and we'll be subjected to their whim.
 
#45
Thunderscreech said:
not synthetic, per se, but they can tailor make bacteria to produce gasoline from sugar water. And gasoline engines already exist, and more importantly, so does the infrastructure.

Plus, Europe is years ahead of the US in clean diesel technology. the VW Jetta TDi, in it's latest incarnation, gets 65 MPG highway, I hear tell. Not even my parent's Prius gets that good. All we need to do is apply the same thing across the board. We can make cars that get ridiculously high MPGs, it's just no one has the incentive because no oen is complaining.
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There you go, a use for all that hideous HFCS that none of us want in our food anymore. :)

65MPG? There are cars over in Europe using three-cylinder diesel engines (don't knock 'em.... they're touquey little buggers) that are getting 80MPG. They're superminis and therefore probably a bit small for US tastes, but even the Euro versions of many mid-size cars are getting 50+MPG with diesel engines, all with lower emissions than many of the gas versions, and none of that noisy diesel clatter.

Fuel cell technology is the future, but, until it matures and is ready for the mass market, clean diesels should be leading the way.
 
#52
Thunderscreech said:
We can make cars that get ridiculously high MPGs, it's just no one has the incentive because no oen is complaining.
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You're right. But it's not because noone is complaining. Its because the government sets up mpg standards that manufacturers have to adhere to. In other words let's say the feds mandate the manufacturers must meet 25mpg by 2010. That allows Ford to produce x amount of 10mpg Expeditions and x amount of 30 mpg Focus so they can meet the average. Come 2010 the feds now raise it to 35. The manufacturers could easily do that now, but they won't because the feds will just raise again. They just want to stay ahead of the curve. Oh and big oil wouldn't like it :)
 
#54
i disagree that the issue is infrastructure. i believe the only problems are supply/generation (production) and demand (consumption by end user via hydrogen vehicles).

petroleum companies are very good at extracting and refining petroleum into gasoline, but they are also very good at distributing liquid fuel to anyone who desires it.

as has been said, its nearly 100% cost based. the bottom line is that our infrastructure has been built by, and is currently maintained by private corporations. fuel is fuel is a product with possible profit..

gasoline will need to be depleted to the point of being too expensive to extract, or hydrogen will need to be cheap enough to make a better profit for drilling to stop. thats when we will see regular/diesel/hydrogen as options at our local station.
 
#55
TOOL460002 said:
i disagree that the issue is infrastructure. i believe the only problems are supply/generation (production) and demand (consumption by end user via hydrogen vehicles).
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So infrastructure. It has to be made, delivered, and sold (or with some systems showing potential for on-site generation, made and sold). That's the infrastructure problem. How do you make it? How do you contain it? How do you move it? How is it packaged for sale?
 
#56
MatticusMania said:
Those suckers sure are quite. Personally, they should stay that way. Are they seriously trying to outfit them with speakers that will make the sound of a gas engine? Thats ludicrous!
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My friend is into Motorcross, they have electric motorbikes which kill the normal bikes in every way, they are faster, more efficient, break down less, looked like the sport was going to go towards electric bikes for a good while. Well.. better in every way except one..

They did a couple of races with them as a trial.. Everyone was bored ****less without the sound of the engines :eek:
 
#57
coreyfyfe said:
So infrastructure. It has to be made, delivered, and sold (or with some systems showing potential for on-site generation, made and sold). That's the infrastructure problem. How do you make it? How do you contain it? How do you move it? How is it packaged for sale?
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petroleum company x can deliver a liquid fuel from a refinery to a fueling station. going with the idea of local hydrogen generation at nuclear power plants, then all you do is swap an oil refinery with a nuclear plant generating hydrogen, and the companies have the trucks to move it and the stations to get it to the end user.

sure, it will take some outfitting at the pump, and of the fuel trucks, so the exact infrastructure does not exist. however, oil companies are liquid fuel distributors, and thats all hydrogen is. its a liquid fuel. maybe oil companies no longer generate their own fuel, but still move liquid fuel for profit.

would you prefer to build it from the ground up? i think we are a few subsidies away from making this a viable option.
 
#58
TOOL460002 said:
petroleum company x can deliver a liquid fuel from a refinery to a fueling station. going with the idea of local hydrogen generation at nuclear power plants, then all you do is swap an oil refinery with a nuclear plant generating hydrogen, and the companies have the trucks to move it and the stations to get it to the end user.

sure, it will take some outfitting at the pump, and of the fuel trucks, so the exact infrastructure does not exist. however, oil companies are liquid fuel distributors, and thats all hydrogen is. its a liquid fuel. maybe oil companies no longer generate their own fuel, but still move liquid fuel for profit.

would you prefer to build it from the ground up? i think we are a few subsidies away from making this a viable option.
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This.

I mean, if it was profitable every service station would stick a bowser of Hydrogen fuel in, but as there is no demand for it yet, its not profitable.

Because there is no where to get fuel, there is no reason to build cars than use it.


However, if the government paid to put one at every petrol station, the cycle would be broken, and off we would go into the future/sunset!

But yeah, i'd like to see hydrogen cars, or electric cars, I like the idea of electric cars simply because of the way an electric motor works. You can drive, and when you use engine breaking you recharge your battery :D
 
#59
Simo98 said:
My friend is into Motorcross, they have electric motorbikes which kill the normal bikes in every way, they are faster, more efficient, break down less, looked like the sport was going to go towards electric bikes for a good while. Well.. better in every way except one..

They did a couple of races with them as a trial.. Everyone was bored ****less without the sound of the engines :eek:
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Thats because they should have been blaring some metal over the loudspeakers.
 
#60
As mentioned in post 31, hydrocarbons are the feedstock for commercial hydrogen production. The reaction is:

Hydrocarbon + Water --> Hydrogen + Carbon Dioxide

The combustion reaction is:

Hydrogen + Oxygen --> Water

The net reaction is:

Hydrocarbon + Oxygen -> Water + Carbon Dioxide

Hyrdogen is nothing but an intermediate. How this improves the use of energy for transportation eludes me.

Hydrogen could be produced by electrolysis from alternative energy sources, but then the most efficient way to transport electricity to cars is probably wires, rather than tank trucks or hydrogen pipelines.

But hydrogen power gets lots of press from automobile and petroleum companies trying to tout "green" energy.
 

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