Hydrogen Cars

[Simo98]

I mean, this is by far the best option imo:

Completely green, looks pretty cool too, much nicer than a Prius.

 

[bassrique]

I'm an electrical engineer and I agree that hydrogen cars are the future.

We could have nuclear plants generate hydrogen at night when demand
for their output is low. This is the direction to true energy independence
and jobs at home.

Instead of the $800B spendulus program that did pretty much nothing,
they should have invested it in 100 new nuclear plants with the intent
of supporting hydrogen production for new vehicles.

More nuclear plants would have been a better use of that money.

A sketch for promoting the growth of the hydrogen producing infrastructure needed to make fuel cell-powered vehicles greener and more profitable:

1) Grey tech taxes go up

2) Green tech taxes go down

3) Standardize solar panel designs (look what IBM's 1981 PC spec. did for encouraging third party participation in making computers cheaper/faster) allowing for lower cost upgrades over time

4) Car makers get into the solar panel leasing business

5) Car makers lease solar panels to businesses, and home owners (who spend much of their time at work instead of at home using electricity)

6) The resulting surplus electricity (owned by the car makers/solar panel leasing companies), augmented as needed by that generated from wind turbines & nuclear (night/seasonal), is converted to hydrogen fuel *at the pumps and sold to the public who now have a more affordable reason to buy hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles.

7) Car makers make $ selling cars AND the fuel they run on

8) Domestic auto industry profits & jobs go up

9) Pollution & transportation costs go down

*Invalid Link Removed

"...Bourgeois's prototype electrolyzer cuts the equipment cost of using electricity to grab hydrogen from H2O. The key was replacing tooled metal with a moldable, high-tech GE plastic called Noryl, saving on materials, manufacturing and assembly. The result? A kilogram of hydrogen -- the energy equivalent of roughly a gallon of gas -- that costs $3 instead of the current $6 to $8. "I could imagine a small box that sits on-site making hydrogen for a factory," Bourgeois says. "Eventually, even filling stations may make their own hydrogen."..."

I offer this sketch in the hope that it will provoke better suggestions on how to make this work.

That leasing idea is interesting. Increased efficiency of solar panel technology will have to happen, as many locales don't see much sun. This will happen over time. More nuclear plants are a must. Wind is over-rated, but works in some areas.

What's potentially more efficient?

Improved solar ---> electricity ---> improved batteries in cars

Improved solar ---> electricity ---> hydrogen ---> car

 

[bassrique]

Hmmmm.....

Platinum is an important component in the fuel cell electrochemical reaction. It is also a scarce earth resource that could be prone to shortages.

http://www.carseek.com/articles/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car.html

So how much platinum is needed per car?


Map: Where it's found

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[MIJ-VI]

More nuclear plants would have been a better use of that money.



That leasing idea is interesting. Increased efficiency of solar panel technology will have to happen, as many locales don't see much sun. This will happen over time. More nuclear plants are a must. Wind is over-rated, but works in some areas.

What's potentially more efficient?

Improved solar ---> electricity ---> improved batteries in cars

Improved solar ---> electricity ---> hydrogen ---> car

The whole green tech development & adoption issue seems to be a Catch 22 which will require innovation on all fronts to achieve a beachhead towards a predominantly green economy.

As for less sunny locales, this development is interesting:

Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News
January 14, 2005

"Scientists have invented a plastic solar cell that can turn the sun's power into electrical energy, even on a cloudy day.

The plastic material uses nanotechnology and contains the first solar cells able to harness the sun's invisible, infrared rays. The breakthrough has led theorists to predict that plastic solar cells could one day become five times more efficient than current solar cell technology..."

 

[MIJ-VI]

Hmmmm.....



http://www.carseek.com/articles/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car.html

So how much platinum is needed per car?


Map: Where it's found

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Good! The widespread global adoption of hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles, and the corresponding increase in demand for platinum, could lead to an economic boom for troubled South Africa/a vested interest on the part of other governments to encourage stabilization in that region.

 

[bassrique]

The whole green tech development & adoption issue seems to be a Catch 22 which will require innovation on all fronts to achieve a beachhead towards a predominantly green economy.

As for less sunny locales, this development is interesting:

Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News
January 14, 2005

"Scientists have invented a plastic solar cell that can turn the sun's power into electrical energy, even on a cloudy day.

The plastic material uses nanotechnology and contains the first solar cells able to harness the sun's invisible, infrared rays. The breakthrough has led theorists to predict that plastic solar cells could one day become five times more efficient than current solar cell technology..."

Hopefully that technology will rev up in the next 5 years. EDIT: Oh wait, it's been 5 years already. Such is life; some things take time.

Good! The widespread global adoption of hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles, and the corresponding increase in demand for platinum, could lead to an economic boom for troubled South Africa/a vested interest on the part of other governments to encourage stabilization in that region.

And upstate NY too.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

The research that goes into solar cells is pretty interesting. We just need to try and get the efficiencies up

 

[()smoke()]

The research that goes into solar cells is pretty interesting. We just need to try and get the efficiencies up

i agree--the efficiency vs cost is the primary reason it is still so hard to utilize this technology in architecture, despite our best efforts...it's simply not economically feasible for most projects, although some budgets and projects do allow for it...building integrated photovoltaics, BIPVs, are very cool

...and although cars need better efficiency for environmental reasons for sure, buildings use 40% of the world's energy, which is a staggering piece of the pie given our advancements in technology over the past 50 years

 

[L-A]

...and although cars need better efficiency for environmental reasons for sure, buildings use 40% of the world's energy, which is a staggering piece of the pie given our advancements in technology over the past 50 years

Indeed! On this matter, I'm eager to see where geothermal tech will be in twenty years.

 

[()smoke()]

Indeed! On this matter, I'm eager to see where geothermal tech will be in twenty years.

if you are interested in geothermal, you might take a look at this project i did along with a team of sustainability-minded engineers and landscape architects for a competition--utilizing a geothermal 'hotspot'

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this concept actually went beyond net zero to becoming an energy producer

 

[MIJ-VI]

if you are interested in geothermal, you might take a look at this project i did along with a team of sustainability-minded engineers and landscape architects for a competition--utilizing a geothermal 'hotspot'

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

this concept actually went beyond net zero to becoming an energy producer

Now this is the kind of comprehensive thinking that is required to help green the global economy :

Sustainable Urban Living

"A new inner-city community founded on the precepts of new urbanism, sustainable living and regenerative design solutions. The team went to unprecedented depths in their assessment of the site’s natural systems. After careful evaluation of plausible alternative energy sources, the team elected to tap into a deep seated energy source uniquely indigenous to the region – “enhanced geothermal”. Additional power is harvested via an extensive photovoltaic array on the façade of the north tower. The resulting concept harnesses the power of these natural systems allowing the development to be a net power provider of carbon-free energy.

An overarching desire to maximize open space drove the decision to concentrate most of the living units into two residential towers. The architectural forms and orientation optimize the harvest of natural daylight and prevailing summer breezes. Conversely, they provide shelter from harsh winter winds and minimize the direct solar heat gain in the summer months. Single loaded corridor designs exponentially increase the effectiveness of these concepts by maximizing natural daylighting and cross ventilation.

At the base of the towers, a unique “inclined park” provides space for food production, habitat, and a unique gravity-operated water treatment system that utilizes wetland plants for water purification. Harvested rainwater and recycled greywater provide ample water needs on an annualized basis with excess treated water being “stored” via injection into the aquifer. An educational wellness center is envisioned to conduct lectures and guided tours, starting at the top of the park and emphasizing the relevance of nature to sustainability, health, and wellbeing in the urban experience.

The lower three floors are devoted to community oriented needs and include a grocery store; an organic open-air market featuring neighborhood grown vegetables and produce from the nearby farmer’s market; a restaurant and late-night outdoor cafe and a community police outpost. Above the ground floor are multiple live/work areas offering varying sizes of public and private landscaped courtyards.
This “re:vision” is a transformation into an exemplary model for sustainable development worldwide – one that balances the needs of its people and their planet."

 

[Philbiker]

Unfortunately it seems as if it is human nature to believe in WOW tech that is too good to be true or unworkable in practical reality.

Hydrogen cars will never happen on a massive scale for many reasons touched on already here.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are to now as flying cars and jetpacks were to the 50s. Yeah, they might work in small demonstrations, the technology can be made functional in a very limited manner, but the practical limitations are simply unworkable.

Same for the so-called "renewable" energy resources of wind, tidal, and solar power, and probably nuclear fusion as well. Those things can never deliver the 24/7 reliable "switch it on" energy that moden literate civilization requires.

The future is nuclear fission, simply because it's the only thing we have. Fuel supply is not and never will be a problem. The sooner we learn to live within the limitations of reality the better. "Conventional battery" (as opposed to an H fuel cell which is basically just a battery also) electric cars are going to happen. The transition is already in full swing! Look at the hybrids out there now, and new cars like the GM Volt and Nissan Leaf.

 

[bassrique]

GM Volt

Does that car live up to the pre-release hype of ~200 mpg?

 

[Philbiker]

Does that car live up to the pre-release hype of ~200 mpg?

Depends on how you drive it. If you commute 15 miles and charge every night it can probably do 200mpg or actually a lot better than that. If you drive it cross country, not so much.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Does that car live up to the pre-release hype of ~200 mpg?

I believe Car & Driver have just done an extensive test of it, and they were able to get about 110mpg, going down to about 60mpg when pushed hard. So, not quite up to the hype, but still pretty bloody good.

Unlike the Prius, the Volt can be driven and not have the gas engine fire up at all for the first 20 miles or so - it works primarily as a range extender, although apparently it can also drive the wheels if necessary at speeds over 70mph.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Not many years ago the prospect of commercially viable 500 - 900 Watt RMS bass amps weighing ~4 lbs. and sporting power supplies in the 90% efficiency range seemed improbable as well...

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Not many years ago the prospect of commercially viable 500 - 900 Watt RMS bass amps weighing ~4 lbs. and sporting power supplies in the 90% efficiency range seemed improbable as well...

True. But yet people still yearn for an SVT.