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Hypothetical Question - 2 Bassist play the same, but one does not know theory

#21
Burlington said:
But if you only play covers, then that is all there is to being a bassist, right?
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Not really. Ever been in a cover band and the band leader goes to you, hey instead of playing it I-V-VI-IV lets start it on the IV and then move it up a step and a half for the verse? Or the band leader goes, hey I can't hit this chord tonight because my voice is shot, we'll do x instead.

Theory helps even in a cover band. Unless you're a really ****** cover band.
 
#22
Burlington said:
They can both play the same licks exactly the same
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Here's what the Music-As-Competitive-Sport crew always seems to miss:

"can" is not the same as "do"

Ever hear someone say "So&so isn't such a hot player; I can play that stuff" ?

The thing that makes so&so such an exceptional musician (presuming they are) isn't that they can play those licks, because yes, you & me & a bazillion other bassists can also play those licks.

The thing that makes so&so such an exceptional musician is that they came up with those licks first. iow, it's not the Facility Chops, it's the Idea Chops that separate the men from the boys.

Your hypothetical situation is a false dichotomy. The only way two bassists would "both play the same licks exactly the same" is if they were both trying to recreate something that had alrready been created (ostensibly by someone else...a third bassist?). As soon as they are tasked with coming up with their own original lines, they cease to be able to "both play the same licks exactly the same"
 
#24
From much of what I read on this site there are a lot of people who equate playing bass with the ability to memorize a song and cover it note for note.

That's not being a musician, that's just being an imitator. And, a musician is normally more curious about theory and the ability to play more than just a memorized line....
 
#25
A few days ago I attended a Bass Clinic with Anthony Wellington of the Victor Wooten Band. It was held at the Atlanta Bass Gallery, and a lot of the areas top Bassist's were there. Anthony has founded a school called "Bassology".

Anthony's message was that it is not about chops, or riffs or the latest trick that make you a complete Bassist, it's knowledge of music and your instrument. He pointed out the fact that most of the other members in the band typically know more about music than the Bassist.

If this is the instrument you love, why not know everything you can about it? Since music is a form of communication, you need to know the language musicians speak. This is especially true if you plan to make a living at it.
 
#28
'Cos I believe your looking for validation, for yo a$$ doing nothing about learning, that's what this thread is really about isn't it? ;)

Put the bong down before you wake up 20 years later, and think 'Why do I know jack shizzle? Oh yeah, because I thought ignorance was bliss, know what I'm saying dude ;)
 
#29
hover said:
Wuh? I do not know theory, but have damn good ears, and know the fretboard inside and out, a good sense of melody, and have composed or so-composed well over 200 songs in the past 23 years, involving counter melodies, chord phrasings and not just riding the root. Does that make me a crap bassist? I mean, I have no interest at ALL in taking a solo. Bass solos bore me to freakin tears.
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Sounds like you know theory to me. The only thing you may not know is the proper naming conventions used in theory.
 
#34
EatADeadGoat said:
As a bassist who knows NO theory, I can definetly say that theory HELPS. I hate the feeling when I'm jamming and someone says some theory stuff and I'm all like......:confused:.....DUDE, JUST SHOW ME!

So I am now learning.
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I think this highlights an important point. Forget "better" or other superlatives, the theory-educated musician can communicate ideas more succintly and clearly with other musicians with similar knowledge. Whether the knowledge is gleaned "by osmosis" from years of playing experience or from strict theory study, being able to be conversant in the language of music is an indispensable aid in my mind.

Certainly it's not necessary for everyone, as there are plenty of non-theory educated musicians making good music, but in the context of a group of musicians who know theory, not knowing theory can be a real drag for everyone. It's like not understanding English at a physics lecture given in English.
 
#35
I think it depends on how an individual's brain is wired whether or not theory is a blessing or a curse.

Theory will definitely improve the learning curve as far as absorbing new material or improvising. But when it comes to creative composition, I think those who "know all the rules" might tend to use those rules as a crutch, Where someone who didn't follow the rules might easily come up with something clever and original out of their ignorance.

But then again, A person who knows the rules and also knows how to creatively ignore them would be a force to be reckoned with. So far, I have not played with a person fitting this description.

To the OP, I think the correct choice may depend on other factors, such as what will be expected of the player and who else they will be playing with. Obviously everyone in the group will need a way to communicate musically with one another. It does not necessarily need to be music theory though.

Anyway, this is the opinion of a person who knows a little theory, but not enough to instruct others on the subject. FWIW
 
#36
FretlessMainly said:
I think this highlights an important point. Forget "better" or other superlatives, the theory-educated musician can communicate ideas more succintly and clearly with other musicians with similar knowledge. Whether the knowledge is gleaned "by osmosis" from years of playing experience or from strict theory study, being able to be conversant in the language of music is an indispensable aid in my mind.

Certainly it's not necessary for everyone, as there are plenty of non-theory educated musicians making good music, but in the context of a group of musicians who know theory, not knowing theory can be a real drag for everyone. It's like not understanding English at a physics lecture given in English.
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That's a better way of saying it. I mean, once I am shown the basic riff I then experiment with it, so there is no lack of creativity, but sometimes it just takes longer to get the ideas across. Helpful but not all important. I'm going to learn just enough to get my ideas across and still just jam out. Hell, sometimes I pick random fret numbers and make cool riffs off of that. I probably break a bunch of rules like that.
 
#38
There are two worlds to it, the people who got the theory coming out of their ears, Parker, Coltrane, Jaco, you name them, and other people who feel that it closes their creativity down, whatever ymmv. The idea with theory is to learn it, then absorb it, then forget it, so your not using it as a crutch and blocking yourself in.

What we have in our heads is the best computer there is, it can't be matched for all round ability, I see no reason to close it down. Learning cannot hurt you, only the way you use it can do that.

I've always tried to put myself in bands with better musicians, that way you have to come up to the mark, it drives you on, but to do that, you've got to know a bit for quick communication, or you won't last too long playing with some cats.

Players with a good set of ears can do, players with a good set of ears and have knowledge, can do more, it's how you use it. That's my take.
 
#39
FretlessMainly said:
If it sounds good, then that rule was meant to be broken.
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This is a good point. Watching an interview of Obscura, and how they recorded their last album, the singer explains how sometimes even though the theory says something will work, breaking the rules (or bending them) a little might sound better for the song. But, you can't break rules if you don't know them.

Learning theory has gotten me more excited to play bass than anything else ever has. It is a very enjoyable experience, once I can wrap my mind around it :D
 
#40
Burlington said:
This is a good point. Watching an interview of Obscura, and how they recorded their last album, the singer explains how sometimes even though the theory says something will work, breaking the rules (or bending them) a little might sound better for the song. But, you can't break rules if you don't know them.

Learning theory has gotten me more excited to play bass than anything else ever has. It is a very enjoyable experience, once I can wrap my mind around it :D
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+1 Both sides, see them. No hard feelings man, we are bigger than that, interesting points. ;)
 

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