Hypothetical Question - 2 Bassist play the same, but one does not know theory

[fingerbun]

Well I think most people's idea of classical music kind of ends at Mozart and Beethoven, and by that time, composers had really only explored melody, counterpoint, and were just starting to study dynamics. Once you get into Debussy and Stravinsky, you have the extreme focus on tone, color, and rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tn7WJ9lRc#t=10m58s

You need excellent rhythmic feel to be able to do even a convincing waltz rhythm. We're getting off topic here, though.

Is it off topic? The topic is the role of theory in making a good player. We are discussing how that applies in different genres.

You are right that the theoretical underpinnings of Mozart differ from those of Stravinsky. Surely the same is true of different jazz genres. Then there's a whole different mindset to play good folk or bluegrass. Great classical players may be able to nail the notes but not the feel.

 

[suraci]

Re: off topic. I thought it was even more specific, namely The role theory plays in a BASS players mind, which is why I thought that rhythmic feel ( for lack of a better term ) was very much on topic. But what do I know, I am just a bass player ha hah

As time passes well beyond the 18th century, and since technology brought us recorders, the task of learning multiple styles of music might seem tempting, but it is just short of impossible for a person to have a deep grasp of all genres. My point is theory or no theory, learning music is timing consuming. Reading a transcription might be fun for some.. but reading it doesn't in anyway mean you OWN IT.
So theory may slightly help, but in the end, music takes a lot of time. Time is limited, we have to make choices ( such as poster implies... 'why waste time with theory.. when I want to jump on this music / band' !!) Though theory will help.. it certainly will not magically make you super versatile, AND an a MAster of more than a few styles, MAX.
I am thinking of the greatest musicians now, and I doubt they are masters much beyond what they are famous for. Capable? Yes, but not adept at blue grass, avant garde and dub. The question of poster points to "how to best use one's time in their development". Assuming they are in a serious space!!

Moving to another topic.. imagine what it was like for the old Euro masters to even hear a performance... they likely had to walk many miles. And no recorder. I imagine the top cats had prodigious talent and memories to match... unreal.

Another point more related to topic. Theory came AFTER the music, not before.

 

[fingerbun]

Re: off topic. I thought it was even more specific, namely The role theory plays in a BASS players mind...
So theory may slightly help, but...Theory came AFTER the music, not before.

Your definition of theory is narrower than mine. Knowing to count 1 2 3 4 to start a 4/4 song and 1 2 3 to start a 3/4 song is theory. Knowing to play a C note under a C chord, and that A string 3rd fret is C is theory. Knowing to play the offbeat in reggae is theory.

How do you play without knowing at least some of this stuff?

 

[suraci]

Is it off topic? The topic is the role of theory in making a good player. We are discussing how that applies in different genres.

You are right that the theoretical underpinnings of Mozart differ from those of Stravinsky. Surely the same is true of different jazz genres. Then there's a whole different mindset to play good folk or bluegrass. Great classical players may be able to nail the notes but not the feel.

I would say this... in general I can say this about different "anythings" eg. different people, different genres of music, different cuisines, different languages, etc. i can say "Different ( fill in the blank with any category of a "thing" eg genre's of jazz ) genres of jazz, are actually BOTH very different from one another and of course also have much commonality. "
So a dichotomy is ever present.
Common aspects are:
For instance PITCH, regardless of the genre of music, pitch is a constant. In contrast , Dixie land jazz is rhythmically much more earthy, more basic, more tied to 1 2 3 4 than say, Avant garde Euro improv.
My point is "things" are not JUST different, or JUST "all the same" ( as I so often hear - "we are all the same" or " music is music" ) but actually they are a blend of very different aspects and identical aspects. Again, an identical common aspect such as steady tempo, or fairly consistent pitch control, or bass player ( Tuba, piano, pipe organ, string bass, bari sax, ac bass , bass trombone, bassoon ) playing bass notes, playing the Root of a chord on a downbeat, often at the beginning of the bar.

In our society, I hear much too much of the argument that all things are the same, and variations of this nihilistic idea. I may not be clear here, forgive me. Just maybe think about it, and I will hopefully add more clarity, as the ideas come to me.
This is not off topic, I relate it directly to the cardinal question, "WHAT theory, and HOW MUCH theory is enough?".

To your question ( fingerbun ) what is the role of theory TO MAKE A GOOD PLAYER, I would say that is old school 20th century thinking. I personally like it. But I am rethinking it. I say, it depends on the player/ student. Remember, all people are the same AND they are also QUITE different. If ALL people are given the same diet, there will be some bad reactions. For the O poster to ask the question he asked, hints to me anyway, that he has subconscious resistance to theory.
This suggests that different versions of theory ought to be taught.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I know a lot of classical players who are awesome if you give them dots but useless if required to improvise.

In general I reckon jazz players have a better grasp of theory.

Mind you, I'll bet on the classical guys to have the best grasp of technique.

I was classically trained, it is about learning to play what you see, a player who questions what he sees is no good. You play what you are given, at the given time and correct, that is it.
We are not there to have input or ideas about the music, we are there to play what the composer has written.

When you leave the classical scene you then learn about how to apply what you know for yourself, for your own means and satisfaction. Develop your skills further and jazz and blues will help in that, as will working with other players in these fields.
In the end Jazz offers the most freedom because it embraces all elements of music to be played with freedom, to incorporate your ideas and styles. With this you can move to other genres and play with confidence and the knowledge you can add a little or as much as you think it needs because of your knowledge.
This is a generalized over view as there are many classical players, and classically trained musicians who can do both with ease.

 

[fingerbun]

I was classically trained, it is about learning to play what you see, a player who questions what he sees is no good. You play what you are given, at the given time and correct, that is it.
We are not there to have input or ideas about the music, we are there to play what the composer has written.

When you leave the classical scene you then learn about how to apply what you know for yourself, for your own means and satisfaction. Develop your skills further and jazz and blues will help in that, as will working with other players in these fields.
In the end Jazz offers the most freedom because it embraces all elements of music to be played with freedom, to incorporate your ideas and styles. With this you can move to other genres and play with confidence and the knowledge you can add a little or as much as you think it needs because of your knowledge.
This is a generalized over view as there are many classical players, and classically trained musicians who can do both with ease.

+100

I am coming from a contemporary background and currently studying orchestral double bass. It's a very rewarding journey but not an easy one.

One confronting aspect of it is that I realize how easy it is to be lazy with technique in contemporary styles. You develop your own lines, so if there is something you can't play you just invent another line that you can play.

In orchestral it's largely "there are the notes. Play them. If you can't play them go away and work on it till you can".

I'm trying to decide how much this has stretched my theory knowledge. I've learned some new terms and new notation but nothing all that hard. However the underlying thought process is quite different. Is that theory?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

+100

I am coming from a contemporary background and currently studying orchestral double bass. It's a very rewarding journey but not an easy one.

One confronting aspect of it is that I realize how easy it is to be lazy with technique in contemporary styles. You develop your own lines, so if there is something you can't play you just invent another line that you can play.

In orchestral it's largely "there are the notes. Play them. If you can't play them go away and work on it till you can".

I'm trying to decide how much this has stretched my theory knowledge. I've learned some new terms and new notation but nothing all that hard. However the underlying thought process is quite different. Is that theory?

I am now 51, the thing i have that others seem to lack is discipline. This discipline coupled with what i have learned in the 30 odd years away from classical means i am content to play what is required of me in all musical situations i am in.
I play Blues mainly but, i have respect for all that has gone before me in as much that i apply what i bring to the situation in keeping with the genre.
I try to push the boundaries in subtle ways to help develop songs and arrangements, but never try to change it.
In an orchestra situation everything is valued, or it would not be there. My job was to approach it with the respect and take it serious.

Sometimes you wait an entire movement just to add your four bars when they come. Miss it or mess it up and they talk turns to "only four bars and you couldn't even get that right...so why should we trust you with more or a 1st chair position"?
I apply the same discipline to all situation, especially Blues.
It is easy to miss the point of your playing if it is for personal gain or accolade, so regardless of how simple the line is, i play it with the same conviction because it is part of a bigger picture, as is the situation in orchestra, big band, brass band, high school band, i am part of something, and that means i give it my all.

I believe this discipline was instilled in my by my classical/orchestral training in my early years. Its seems it is something other like to have in their bands and projects that you will play what is asked of you, but can offer more if asked.

 

[suraci]

Two bassplayers. They can both play the same licks exactly the same, their technique is exactly the same, and their sound is exactly the same.

One knows theory and one does not .......you ears can't tell a difference.

I'm not trying to troll anyone, and I totally understand the benefits of learning theory, but it is astonishing to me how many people will blow off other musicians if they find that they don't know any theory.
.

OP is above.
IF "I totally understand the benefits of learning theory", what is the gist of your question? You are astonished at ignorance?
Get used to it, my friend, it is everywhere.

IF you "understand the benefits of learning theory" please tell me your opinions about benefits and WHAT you define as theory in much more detail?

No two bass players are the same,
Bass in particular deals with very subtle aspects of music. If guys are "blowing (you) off", I say they are not that sharp with music. Look for greener pastures.