I absolutely suck at ear training.

[BAG]

I hear you OP!
I seriously have trouble hearing intervals. I can hear that the song is about to change chord but most of the time I couldn't tell you what that chord is without some trial and error in finding the chord and generally have to learn the chord progression by playing it over and over unless it's a basic three or four chord progression.

I truly believe that I just don't have a good enough ear. As an example, when playing fretless I really have to keep an eye on my side dots to make sure I'm in the right general area. I can hear when a note is even just a little off but rarely can I tell if I'm a little sharp or flat without looking at my side dots. And this is after literally putting in hundreds of hours of fretless playing. I've tried not looking at the fingerboard or playing in the dark and it is just so frustrating that I revert back to watching what I'm doing.

One thing that can help is listening to a 3 chord song, and just write down the chords in numbers. For example; If the song is in C, that's 1, F is 4, and G is 5. You most likely know this and forgive my over simplification... but just listen for those 3 chords and hear the difference, and listen intently for the progression to resolve to 1.

This has probably been the best thing for helping me improve a little. I now chart most songs using scale degree numbers like this above but I'll also add a little "m" for the minor chords in the progression. This way once I've learned a song I can play it in any key a lot easier and I am hearing those intervals a little better..... but I'm still pretty crap at it.

 

[dkelley]

Listen to the following. which is the ‘correct’ triad?

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Incidentally, anyone with a guitar laying round can demonstrate that current tuning for keyboards and chordal instrument such as guitar cannot be ‘perfect’ in pitch. Tune using the harmonics. Start at the E-A, then A-D, etc. Skip the B string, and tune the high E from the 5th fret harmonic of the low E.

Now try to tune your B string against either of the surrounding strings. Are you gonna match the open B string to the G string, 4th fret? Or are you gonna match the B string, 5th fret to the open E?

You can do one or the other. You cannot do both.

That's entirely different, sir.

Temperament is an incredibly complex thing. That's not what I'm talking about.

I hear pitch and temperament as well as anyone with perfect pitch. Also I have two degrees in classical music so I have the knowledge to understand it all, long with the performing experience with the various instruments that would be common discussion points for temperament.

But someone with perfect pitch, from my experience working with them, can't handle hearing a performance on an instrument that was clearly in tune but the recording changed the tuning imperfectly (to somewhere between 2 semitones). I have trouble with it too sometimes but adjust fast. Perfect pitch folks can't "adjust" in a "I'll forget about it and accept it" kind of way. They get edgy from it.

Playing two notes perfectly in tune without beat tones is not something that can be done using the equal tempered scale in the same way as it can be done between two string or wind instruments. However neither system is "out of tune". And anyone experienced in classical music, perfect pitch or not, understands that and has studied it and can handle hearing it without issues.

It's different from hearing a piano recording that is supposed to be in E minor when the E being played in somewhere between and E and an Eb. That sort of thing drives people with perfect pitch nuts.

I'm just stating this from having witnessed the phenomenon a lot - I was good friends with someone with absolutely perfect pitch. I'm not making this up.

 

[jamro217]

It works if you substitute playing two adjacent strings on your bass (lowest first) in standard tuning for "Here Comes The Bride".

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

I found that my interval recognition got much better when I learned to recognize certain notes that I could compare other notes to. One example is the note F. Most car horns are an F, at least American cars. Another is the note A. The first note played on the acoustic guitar in Stairway is an A. Gradually, I began to recognize other notes like C, B, D, and E. G is different as I recognize it as an emotion, I associate that with G. Don't know why. And the more modern Pop I listen too, the more I am slowly starting to fill in some other notes. Minor intervals again are a different emotion than major intervals. So if I sing the root and sing Do-Re-Mi, but it sounds sad, it is a minor 3rd, not major.

My .02, YM will be different
Thanks

 

[Lagado]

The only person I've known with perfect pitch was the chap I mentioned earlier with synesthesia. He could tell you if the note was a couple of cents flat or sharp. I tested him with a tuner. He could name a creak in a floorboard to a whistling kettle. Working out complex solos or whatever was no problem. Others have relative pitch, I can get close to G when fitting some new strings, but it will be roughly roundabout. It certainly won't be bang on. Synesthesia, is quite something to witness. At first I thought it was some kind of witchcraft.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

My only experience with someone with perfect pich was when I was a high school student attending Berklee as a student in a program for Boston kids. I went every Saturday during the summers of '74, '75, & '76. There was one kid who when asked, could name any random note the instructor played on the piano. The kid never missed one.
My best take from that time was the theory I learned. It gave me the ability to cheat and just play the melody with my right hand and the chords on the left (by reading the guitar chords above the staff). I was never really a two handed piano player but could fake my way through in a pinch.

 

[MVE]

Listen to the following. which is the ‘correct’ triad?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Incidentally, anyone with a guitar laying round can demonstrate that current tuning for keyboards and chordal instrument such as guitar cannot be ‘perfect’ in pitch. Tune using the harmonics. Start at the E-A, then A-D, etc. Skip the B string, and tune the high E from the 5th fret harmonic of the low E.

Now try to tune your B string against either of the surrounding strings. Are you gonna match the open B string to the G string, 4th fret? Or are you gonna match the B string, 5th fret to the open E?

You can do one or the other. You cannot do both.

That is not what the term “perfect pitch” means.

“Perfect pitch” is the ability to identify a note without a relative tone to compare it to. (ahhhhhhh, thats a “c”)

“Relative pitch” or interval identification (what the OP was referring to) is the ability to identify a pitch in relation to the root note. Do re mi... etc.

What you are referring to is the limitations of equal temperament in relation to “pure intervals” which are intervals that do not beat.

 

[coyote1]

That is not what the term “perfect pitch” means.

“Perfect pitch” is the ability to identify a note without a relative tone to compare it to. (ahhhhhhh, thats a “c”)

“Relative pitch” or interval identification (what the OP was referring to) is the ability to identify a pitch in relation to the root note. Do re mi... etc.

What you are referring to is the limitations of equal temperament in relation to “pure intervals” which are intervals that do not beat.

If that’s what perfect pitch is, then no one can be born with it. Else a 3 week old infant would be able to do it.

They can’t.

I can instantly identify a note, any note in the scale, with no other note being sounded. I do NOT have perfect pitch. It took me some time to learn it, but I do it. It is relative to what notes I have memorized. I cannot name them in their Indian names; I can name them in English or German or Italian or Spanish.

 

[MVE]

If that’s what perfect pitch is, then no one can be born with it. Else a 3 week old infant would be able to do it.

They can’t.

I can instantly identify a note, any note in the scale, with no other note being sounded. I do NOT have perfect pitch. It took me some time to learn it, but I do it. It is relative to what notes I have memorized. I cannot name them in their Indian names; I can name them in English or German or Italian or Spanish.

When I say, born with it, I am referring to an innate ability that is not specifically learned. Ie, the way we see color. Babies can see colors at about five months. The can’t say, “red” until they learn the word for red a few years later. But they can identify red well before that.
People with perfect pitch recognize pitch the way most of us see colors. I see red and I know it is red and not yellow or green.
When Madison was 2 years old telling my mom she was singing the ABC song “wrong” she didn’t know CDEFG, she only knew the recording or tv show she had learned the song from and knew my mom was not singing those same notes.

 

[rutrho]

As I mentioned in other threads, I am a failed music major trying to use bass to reconnect with music 25 years later. I love playing bass, but I find myself flashbacking to the hours spent at the music center in college utterly failing at every ear training exercise. I think I just downright suck at it. I have been at it for four weeks doing interval training with various apps. I started at 2/30 correct. Four weeks later I moved up to 3/30 correct on the first attempt. Is there a biological component to this? I can only hear 4 and 5s ...and not even on the first try always.

This is so frustrating. The reason I dropped my music major in college was because I would spend hours and hours using an ear training program, and after 6 months, was not appreciably better, and failing all my tests. Intervals were guesswork at best and chords were just impossible.

Now I find myself repeating this, and I am just getting angry and frustrated.

What is the secret to this? I can memorize notes, scales, modes, patterns......but I can’t friggen HEAR intervals.

I sometimes try and “play by ear”...but its an exercise in futility. I always wind up having to go to a chart/tab.

Sorry for the rant.....but this is making me want to give up again.

I feel ya, I have an AWFUL sense of pitch as well. Ear training was always an exercise in frustration and I'm BAD at learning stuff by ear. To make matters worse or more interesting... I have synesthesia that tends to be more textural focused. Needless to say music is fun, interesting and always weird.

Ive sort of learned to embrace it though, as I tend to have a fairly different approach to writing music that can make for some cool harmonies. I'm hella thankful my band is able to work with charts and stuff for riffs.

 

[MVE]

I feel ya, I have an AWFUL sense of pitch as well. Ear training was always an exercise in frustration and I'm BAD at learning stuff by ear.

Ive sort of learned to embrace it though, as I tend to have a fairly different approach to writing music that can make for some cool harmonies. I'm hella thankful my band is able to work with charts and stuff for riffs.

I too have a terrible ear for intervals, but strangely I am very good at identifying scales.

Play the whole 8 notes, from octave to octave, and I can tell you the Ionian from the Lydian or the Harmonic minor from Aeolian backwards or forwards, fast or slow.

You should try testing yourself on scales. I have a totally untested theory that those of us musicians that can’t identify chords or intervals too well might be better than average at identifying one scale from another, even when they are just one note apart.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

To me the PRACTICAL definition of perfect pitch is someone who has the ability to name a note played without any other tonal reference. Like my example above where the kid in the back row can name any note played on the piano he hears. IMO the practical definition of RELATIVE pitch is to be able to name a note if given a reference note. Like if you play a note and tell me it is C, I could name the next note and therefore know the interval.
But I still feel that the most practical application of all of this it to recognize notes or chords when you hear them. Tonight, my wife played me a new Kip Moore song that never heard before. I knew it was in the key of A and could follow the chord progression without any issue. I knew when I heard a 1, 4, 5, 6 minor, etc. And I do realize that in this application practice makes perfect (no pun intended). Like many many years of practice in my case.

Clinical examples including Synthesia belong in the clinic. For those of us who try to function in the practical world these examples are more than we need to consider.
YMMV

 

[dkelley]

4 examples

The "omg shark!" music from Jaws is a minor second
"Here comes the bride" is a perfect fourth
First two notes in "The Simpsons" is a flat 5th / augmented 4th.
The old "NBC" theme, the first two notes are a major 6th

If you can hum those tunes, you can identify intervals.

That (well variations of that) is how my mum, a professional music/piano teacher, used to teach interval recognition to her students. It worked really well, even if the student couldn't actually sing in tune themselves... they could recognize them pretty reliably after a lot of repetition and good teaching.

 

[rutrho]

I too have a terrible ear for intervals, but strangely I am very good at identifying scales.

Play the whole 8 notes, from octave to octave, and I can tell you the Ionian from the Lydian or the Harmonic minor from Aeolian backwards or forwards, fast or slow.

You should try testing yourself on scales. I have a totally untested theory that those of us musicians that can’t identify chords or intervals too well might be better than average at identifying one scale from another, even when they are just one note apart.

You might be on to something there

 

[Old_Noob]

Well, good news, sort of...after a frustrating half hour, I decided to simplify the exercises on the program and limit it to major and perfect intervals within 1 octave.... out of 250 pairings, I got 85% right on the first try.....
my problem seems to be distinguishing minor intervals in minor keys..


well. at least there is hope for me, i guess

 

[byacey]

I am primarily self taught. I play violin as well as bass and have a pretty fair ear for relative intervals. The trick is always knowing where the 1 is in the piece of music you are playing. If you know where the 1 is and can hear it in your mind, then you also know the 2, the 7, and the 4 and 5 and how they relate to the 1. This only leaves the 3 and 6, which are pretty easy to determine when you know where all the others are.

 

[glocke1]

Well, good news, sort of...after a frustrating half hour, I decided to simplify the exercises on the program and limit it to major and perfect intervals within 1 octave.... out of 250 pairings, I got 85% right on the first try.....
my problem seems to be distinguishing minor intervals in minor keys..


well. at least there is hope for me, i guess

Smart move.

Whenever I have a problem with something I break it down to the smallest component I can and work on that until I can do it as flawlessly as my 53 year old brain and fingers allow me to. Right now Im working on two octave major scales on double bass and am having trouble with maintaining proper intonation while descending so I'll focus on that part only instead of playing the whole scale.

Sounds to me like you just need to do similar, focus on majors, and play/sing one interval at a time until you are able to easily recognize them with your apps. Than move to minors, than back to majors and work on the extensions.

At the end of the day its largely about becoming comfortable with the stuff and thats only done by consistency and lots of repetition.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

I wasted a whole year on ear training before someone pointed out to me that it has nothing to do with learning how to wiggle you ears.

I spent the better part of a year doing just that during French class, when I was about 14 years old. It didn't do much for my French, but I can wiggle both ears independently. And I went to uni to study French, later

 

[Big Heavy Bass]

relative pitch can be developed to the point where it is almost like perfect pitch. If anyone is familiar with Rick Beato and his youtube channel he demonstrates this by playing a C on his piano and then he has a program playing random notes across multiple octaves and he names them all without any hesitation, he's developed his relative pitch to a point where he can name any note instantly when he's given a reference.

 

[Billy Bob Bass]

thanks....nice to know I am not the only one in this situation. I will soldier on and love playing..

I am a type~A personality, and view my failure to learn this in college as a moral failing of sorts {i never fail at things....i may not be good , but I damn well be competent through sheer willpower, practice, and determination- ear training being the exception}. I am probably putting too much pressure on myself. { Bass is kind of my mid-life crisis hobby}.

Many people often put a lot of pressure on themselves, me included. But why and at what cost? Is it worth it? Can you relax and let the "I have to" go? I often ask myself: is learning to play bass guitar a wonderful creative hobby that I really enjoy, no matter how much I suck at it (and I do, but I can laugh about it) or is it something I absolutely have to achieve during my lifetime, no matter the stress and frustration? Be gentle on yourself and appreciate what you have already achieved! Many people probably can't even do what you do, but no matter what; you walk your own path.

I think it's good to set goals, but it shouldn't take over and become the most important thing in your life, unless of course you really enjoy it. When I feel that something is becoming unpleasantly (and often unproductively) important to me, I try to let go for a while. There, in the space I created, new ideas, better understanding and new energy can grow. I can later pick up my instrument and try again and to my surprise do something I thought I couldn't do. Oh, and did I tell you to enjoy it?