Last year I got to try out a dual 361 rig for sale local to me. One on its own was the greatest sound I've ever heard. Plugged in the second cab, and it was the voice of God.
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I Miss The Big Stuff
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
Agreed.Hate to break it to you kids, but downsizing and ampless gigs didn't just start a few years ago when micros and neo speakers came out on a wide scale.
It certainly didn't feel like downsizing when we wheeled in 80 lb solid state power amps and those big "sugar scoop" cabs for the PA, but it was. And ever since PA's got powerful enough to fill venues in a painfully loud but clean way, there have been ampless musicians. Keyboard players were the first to adapt, and who could blame them? Even the smallest keyboards of the day were big and bulky and you needed a good handful of them to get gigs. So why wouldn't you run them to the PA and just monitor them with a floor monitor at your first opportunity?
But bassists and guitarists had these little instruments and often only one back then, so we hung onto our big stuff, and there wasn't much downsizing going on with us, though there were folks who cut their 810's and 215's in half and did smaller gigs with them. There were some lower wattage combo users, but most of them either had adequate PA or played quieter in smaller rooms. And they were still pretty big compared to combos today.
But the slow crawl we did to ampless setups happened anyway. I started seeing bassists do it around here. First major band I saw doing it was Devo in 1980. At first I thought they were all DI but found a couple mic'ed MusicMan combos off in the wings. A bit disconcerting, but OK. Then a few more, and a few more, and I saw a set of IEM's first time in like 1990 with Sinead O'Connor on SNL. That was really disconcerting. I was afraid it was a sound tech/singer conspiracy to get us all using them, and I hated the idea of listening to my awesome tones on a portable music player.
Well it took 25 years to become truly widespread through all of live performance-dom, sound techs and singers, but mission accomplished. IEM's are consistently cheaper and better at lower prices all the time. Bassists can tailor their DI sounds with preamps that don't cost much money or take up much room, or they can show up with an instrument cord and say, "Plug me into something and let's go." Guitarists are finally not balking at the latest in digital gear, and those who still are also have a lot of choices for running direct in other ways, all of which are perfectly usable. Even drummers will sometimes forego their acoustic drums for digital despite the flaws if it pays enough, and if they won't, you can just put them in a glass box.
And I'm certainly no stranger to downsizing, either. I've done arena gigs with a B-15 and been asked to turn down. Even did a short series of ampless gigs earlier this year. It wasn't horrible. Everything sounded fine. I've got a handful of small stuff I use pretty much exclusively at the moment ranging from top of the line to the cheapest of the cheapest practice amps, and it all sounds terrific because it's well chosen and I play more right notes than wrong
But dang do I miss hearing myself through a big juicy 810! And oh how I miss the sound of a good 412 on guitar! And I hate when the drummer goes digital or gets stuck in a box. And it's not that I want to hear them loudly, either. They sound great to me at low volumes, too. Once heard a guitarist using a 412 with a 5w tube amp and he sounded so much better than the players I work with using smaller cabs. And I've done many gigs with an SVT and 810 at B-15 volumes and it was still amazing sounding.
And you try telling that to your band and venue manager when you show up for a small patio jazz gig with a 412 or 810, and they look at you like you are a mental patient. "No no," I said, "It works quietly, too!" But they never listen. And God forbid you want to ride with someone else and insist on that 810! Even a 410 is enough to get you dirty looks these days.
So you do what you need to do to keep getting the calls. Honestly, I don't mind the reduced schleps at all. I can get in and out of gigs faster than a sax player if I don't have to tote my upright. And my stuff is all quality or at least well-chosen cheap and I don't think I ever sound the least bit bad. But dang, do I love to hear myself through the big stuff! No matter how big the small stuff is, it just doesn't have the physics of the big stuff.
I’ve done the due diligence with the ampless thing, and have about as killer a setup for that domain as I’m likely to find. Yes, my monitor channel sounds awesome. My molds are not too uncomfortable. That’s all fine as far as it goes.
Here’s what I miss and object to:
First, as you said, there is just no substitute for a well designed big rig.
Second, I vastly prefer the dynamic interaction with the other musicians in real time and space to create an overall mix. The concept of giving my dynamics to a sound engineer with a fader drastically detracts from being a musician, IMO.
Third, while my IEM channel sounds stellar, I have no control of what said sound engineer actually does with the signal, which MY audience actually hears.
Yes, the ampless thing can work. No, I don’t love it. And, TBH, if that’s the way music was played when I started...I don’t think I would have started.
I don't feel right on the gig unless I can feel my bass deep in my bones... going DI with just a wedge in front of me always feels terrible. So it goes.
There really is nothing quite like strapping onto a big rig and riding the lightening; it's damned fun! It's rare when it's appropriate, but nice once in a while. For the day-to-day work, however, the practicality of using a modeler and IEMs is tough to beat...
I completely agree! I find myself using my CTM-30 and Bassic 1x15 for most gigs but sometimes I bring out the CTM-100 and both Bassics. I know it’s not the same as an SVT + 810 but in comparison to my smaller rig, it had a similar effect. There’s something just missing when I’m not using the big rig.
BTW, I’m kinda curious what the consensus is on this trend. Might be a good idea to do a poll. Just an idea, FWIW.
How about stuffing a couple neo 12's into an Ampeg fridge and adjust the cab's internal TS parameters?
Lugging a fridge that weighs a watermelon.
Hell, open it up and just it at storage too! I bet it could be a hard shell case for your bass and a stow for cables and pedals.
This doesn't sound bad. Though ridiculous, but not awful.
Lugging a fridge that weighs a watermelon.
Hell, open it up and just it at storage too! I bet it could be a hard shell case for your bass and a stow for cables and pedals.
This doesn't sound bad. Though ridiculous, but not awful.
Dunno. I was never overly concerned about the weight of my gear. I just assumed it was something that went with the turf and dealt with it.
I once worked a sumner job with a moving company as a young ‘un and learned a lot about lifting things without hurting yourself - or somebody else. There’s proper and safe ways to move heavy objects. And things like gear carts, hand trucks, loading straps, and dollies to help you. Amazing how so many players will think nothing of spending two grand on an amp, or $300 on a pedal, but balk at spending $80-$100 on equipment to make it easier to move their stuff around. (Doing your load in and out while sober is also being minimally intelligent about it.)
I was always more concerned about the dimensions and how unwieldy something might be to wrangle or fit in a van or on a stage.
I once worked a sumner job with a moving company as a young ‘un and learned a lot about lifting things without hurting yourself - or somebody else. There’s proper and safe ways to move heavy objects. And things like gear carts, hand trucks, loading straps, and dollies to help you. Amazing how so many players will think nothing of spending two grand on an amp, or $300 on a pedal, but balk at spending $80-$100 on equipment to make it easier to move their stuff around. (Doing your load in and out while sober is also being minimally intelligent about it.)
I was always more concerned about the dimensions and how unwieldy something might be to wrangle or fit in a van or on a stage.
I've gone from several years of an SVT Classic through an 8 10 to a PF 500 and a 2 12. It's almost as good but I sure do miss the big rig sound. Recently we had a rehearsal at my house where the big rig had been retired to. Everybody LOVED it including me. I was even asked by one member why I didn't still use it. Uhhh , because I can't pick it up anymore. Getting old is better than dying I guess , but it sure pisses me off sometimes. 
At the risk of living up to a stereotype based on my age, I will say that if the band has someone good running sound for FOH and our IEM, I really do prefer a DI gig with IEM.
It would probably take some tweaking to get my exact Amp + cab sound (GK 700RB-II into Avatar Neo 212) piping into a mixing board, but I have no doubt that it's possible. I started out of necessity using headphones for practice since my band and I rehearsed in an apartment. Electric drums and everyone else had DI into a mixing board feeding the headphone amp. Since IEM was less forgiving on mistakes, we became much tighter in our playing.
When we moved to the guitarist's house for practice and went to amps again, everyone but the guitarist really wanted to go back to IEM. I noticed it was much harder to hear myself and the others, overall it was just really muddled when it came to picking out notes and locking in. I've had to adapt since most bands want to play through cabs at practice, but not carrying a full-on rig means I can bring more basses with me or spend more on a good preamp than focusing on amp wattage or cabs just to be heard.
YMMV, but as I said my caveat is that you have to have someone good running the mixing board.
It would probably take some tweaking to get my exact Amp + cab sound (GK 700RB-II into Avatar Neo 212) piping into a mixing board, but I have no doubt that it's possible. I started out of necessity using headphones for practice since my band and I rehearsed in an apartment. Electric drums and everyone else had DI into a mixing board feeding the headphone amp. Since IEM was less forgiving on mistakes, we became much tighter in our playing.
When we moved to the guitarist's house for practice and went to amps again, everyone but the guitarist really wanted to go back to IEM. I noticed it was much harder to hear myself and the others, overall it was just really muddled when it came to picking out notes and locking in. I've had to adapt since most bands want to play through cabs at practice, but not carrying a full-on rig means I can bring more basses with me or spend more on a good preamp than focusing on amp wattage or cabs just to be heard.
YMMV, but as I said my caveat is that you have to have someone good running the mixing board.
I’m still loving the schlep with the LDS 212 cab that you sold me.
It’s relatively easy to move and definitely still moves “real air”.
Here’s the funny thing. I’m of the school that doesn’t see the point of packing multiple basses (save for a backup) for your average live gig. Maybe I’ve grow tired of all the stage delays caused by swapping instruments that seems to go on with some bands. Especially since most times it seems to make such a minute difference in the sound. And that’s assuming it makes any audible difference at all.
I still only have one back, and I want to keep it going for a while longer.................
A lot of bands who are still playing clubs bring a legit back line. While it isn't needed and you get a snicker or two from the sound guys they are still pretty widely used in the underground rock scenes. I know for me I will always lug my svt and 810 around until my band starts running ears, but I don't see that happening any time soon. I think I am going to start bringing around a md421 and one of those mic clip ons for 810s so I can just ask the sound guys to plug in a xlr to it rather than using the DI.
"More" for me typically means 2 or 3 total on stage. Most of the time I don't buy another bass unless it brings something substantially different to the table in terms of sound. I'm not the guy who brings 6 P-basses with rounds and only different paintjobs, it'd be a flatwounds P-bass, Jazz with rounds, and a 5-string Ibanez with EMGs. I'm also pretty quick at swapping
Phew! I thought you were talking about Ukraine...Hate to break it to you kids, but downsizing and ampless gigs didn't just start a few years ago when micros and neo speakers came out on a wide scale.
It certainly didn't feel like downsizing when we wheeled in 80 lb solid state power amps and those big "sugar scoop" cabs for the PA, but it was. And ever since PA's got powerful enough to fill venues in a painfully loud but clean way, there have been ampless musicians. Keyboard players were the first to adapt, and who could blame them? Even the smallest keyboards of the day were big and bulky and you needed a good handful of them to get gigs. So why wouldn't you run them to the PA and just monitor them with a floor monitor at your first opportunity?
But bassists and guitarists had these little instruments and often only one back then, so we hung onto our big stuff, and there wasn't much downsizing going on with us, though there were folks who cut their 810's and 215's in half and did smaller gigs with them. There were some lower wattage combo users, but most of them either had adequate PA or played quieter in smaller rooms. And they were still pretty big compared to combos today.
But the slow crawl we did to ampless setups happened anyway. I started seeing bassists do it around here. First major band I saw doing it was Devo in 1980. At first I thought they were all DI but found a couple mic'ed MusicMan combos off in the wings. A bit disconcerting, but OK. Then a few more, and a few more, and I saw a set of IEM's first time in like 1990 with Sinead O'Connor on SNL. That was really disconcerting. I was afraid it was a sound tech/singer conspiracy to get us all using them, and I hated the idea of listening to my awesome tones on a portable music player.
Well it took 25 years to become truly widespread through all of live performance-dom, sound techs and singers, but mission accomplished. IEM's are consistently cheaper and better at lower prices all the time. Bassists can tailor their DI sounds with preamps that don't cost much money or take up much room, or they can show up with an instrument cord and say, "Plug me into something and let's go." Guitarists are finally not balking at the latest in digital gear, and those who still are also have a lot of choices for running direct in other ways, all of which are perfectly usable. Even drummers will sometimes forego their acoustic drums for digital despite the flaws if it pays enough, and if they won't, you can just put them in a glass box.
And I'm certainly no stranger to downsizing, either. I've done arena gigs with a B-15 and been asked to turn down. Even did a short series of ampless gigs earlier this year. It wasn't horrible. Everything sounded fine. I've got a handful of small stuff I use pretty much exclusively at the moment ranging from top of the line to the cheapest of the cheapest practice amps, and it all sounds terrific because it's well chosen and I play more right notes than wrong
But dang do I miss hearing myself through a big juicy 810! And oh how I miss the sound of a good 412 on guitar! And I hate when the drummer goes digital or gets stuck in a box. And it's not that I want to hear them loudly, either. They sound great to me at low volumes, too. Once heard a guitarist using a 412 with a 5w tube amp and he sounded so much better than the players I work with using smaller cabs. And I've done many gigs with an SVT and 810 at B-15 volumes and it was still amazing sounding.
And you try telling that to your band and venue manager when you show up for a small patio jazz gig with a 412 or 810, and they look at you like you are a mental patient. "No no," I said, "It works quietly, too!" But they never listen. And God forbid you want to ride with someone else and insist on that 810! Even a 410 is enough to get you dirty looks these days.
So you do what you need to do to keep getting the calls. Honestly, I don't mind the reduced schleps at all. I can get in and out of gigs faster than a sax player if I don't have to tote my upright. And my stuff is all quality or at least well-chosen cheap and I don't think I ever sound the least bit bad. But dang, do I love to hear myself through the big stuff! No matter how big the small stuff is, it just doesn't have the physics of the big stuff.
Enough of that!
Love how an svt/ 810 sounds, especially loud when it is breaking up a bit. Man that is sweet.
- Oct 22, 2015
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This morning I saw a GK 410 in a local brick and mortar that wasn't there yesterday. Priced to move at $175. Rat fur. Cannot possibly move it myself. Maybe with a hand truck, but to get it in and out of a car would present a different effort that may or may not be successful.
If I never had to move it? Sure! Can't guarantee that, so there it stays for another lucky customer.
If I never had to move it? Sure! Can't guarantee that, so there it stays for another lucky customer.
