Moved big speakers for 1/2 of my life as a soundman, wish I had all those years back. I do not miss it at all!!!
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I Miss The Big Stuff
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
- Sep 4, 2010
- 3,304
- 2,730
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: Martin Keith Guitars
More than me moving air, it is to me that rock esthetic of everybody moving air at the same time, creating a thick soundscape where individual notes and textures disappear to morph into a thick sonic midrange mass as if God (or whomever is your fave Higher Being is) squeezes a giant tube of tooth paste over the face of the earth and we get to be its messenger. It's truly awesome.
But musically it really makes no sense for me anymore. 2 weeks ago i was in a studio and played in that esthetic for the first time in 20 years, being put in the same room as the loud (and very good) drummer, and the organist who did a decent job bringing Jon Lord back from the dead.
I loved playing with the guys, but the outside noise leaking in necessitating me to have a very loud signal in my cans, where every note was blurring into someone else's in the first place, wasn't a joyful experience. At 54 years of age, I have enough ringing in my ears as is.
It's back to modern classical and (free) jazz for me (free jazz especially: energy and excitement not unlike good rock 'n roll, but with air between the notes, division in the frequency ranges and horns unamplified).
From now on I'll be plugging in any rock-esthetic parts in the control room with a proper low volume headphone mix in the cans, thank you very much. And I'll live out my nostalgia at home on the couch, with a cup of tea and No Sleep Till Hammersmith on the stereo at whisper level.
But musically it really makes no sense for me anymore. 2 weeks ago i was in a studio and played in that esthetic for the first time in 20 years, being put in the same room as the loud (and very good) drummer, and the organist who did a decent job bringing Jon Lord back from the dead.
I loved playing with the guys, but the outside noise leaking in necessitating me to have a very loud signal in my cans, where every note was blurring into someone else's in the first place, wasn't a joyful experience. At 54 years of age, I have enough ringing in my ears as is.
It's back to modern classical and (free) jazz for me (free jazz especially: energy and excitement not unlike good rock 'n roll, but with air between the notes, division in the frequency ranges and horns unamplified).
From now on I'll be plugging in any rock-esthetic parts in the control room with a proper low volume headphone mix in the cans, thank you very much. And I'll live out my nostalgia at home on the couch, with a cup of tea and No Sleep Till Hammersmith on the stereo at whisper level.
Big rigs can sound great. Light weight rigs can sound great. These days we are very lucky to have the option to choose the one that fits our requirements.
I remember the old days with a lot of affection. They were great and unique times, and being there, if only on the fringes, was a blast, but as far as gear is concerned I only look forwards. I'm playing great gear now and there is probably even greater gear just around the corner. I can't wait.
I remember the old days with a lot of affection. They were great and unique times, and being there, if only on the fringes, was a blast, but as far as gear is concerned I only look forwards. I'm playing great gear now and there is probably even greater gear just around the corner. I can't wait.
One of the things I missed most about playing in loud rock bands was the absolute tornado of stage volume that dual 4x12's and my 610 brought. There's nothing like playing a small rock club and feeling the air move. After I did that again for a few years, I was ready to get back to hauling less stuff and more nuance.
I reserve the right to change my mind again at any time.
I reserve the right to change my mind again at any time.
Ahh for the big stuff! Two, 2x15 Fender Bassmans and Fender PS400. Had to take them everywhere , had a 1973 Buick Le Sabre that I could fit it all in. But, I had to take out the bottom cushion of the back seat (remember when you could just pop them out) and put one cabinet there and I could fit one cabinet and the amp in the trunk, basses ride shotgun. Total over kill for like 99.99% of the places we played, but that rig sounded so sweet. Sadly, its all gone, the only thing I have left from this picture is the guitar strap which I still use regularly. I bought the strap in 1979, it's a Fret Sling, anyone remember these? They were cut is kind on an 'S' shape and are extremely comfortable, I'm shocked no one is making anything like this today. The amp is sitting on top of the two cabinets, not a easy feat getting it up there, it has a black face so it blends in.
Hate to break it to you kids, but downsizing and ampless gigs didn't just start a few years ago when micros and neo speakers came out on a wide scale.
It certainly didn't feel like downsizing when we wheeled in 80 lb solid state power amps and those big "sugar scoop" cabs for the PA, but it was. And ever since PA's got powerful enough to fill venues in a painfully loud but clean way, there have been ampless musicians. Keyboard players were the first to adapt, and who could blame them? Even the smallest keyboards of the day were big and bulky and you needed a good handful of them to get gigs. So why wouldn't you run them to the PA and just monitor them with a floor monitor at your first opportunity?
But bassists and guitarists had these little instruments and often only one back then, so we hung onto our big stuff, and there wasn't much downsizing going on with us, though there were folks who cut their 810's and 215's in half and did smaller gigs with them. There were some lower wattage combo users, but most of them either had adequate PA or played quieter in smaller rooms. And they were still pretty big compared to combos today.
But the slow crawl we did to ampless setups happened anyway. I started seeing bassists do it around here. First major band I saw doing it was Devo in 1980. At first I thought they were all DI but found a couple mic'ed MusicMan combos off in the wings. A bit disconcerting, but OK. Then a few more, and a few more, and I saw a set of IEM's first time in like 1990 with Sinead O'Connor on SNL. That was really disconcerting. I was afraid it was a sound tech/singer conspiracy to get us all using them, and I hated the idea of listening to my awesome tones on a portable music player.
Well it took 25 years to become truly widespread through all of live performance-dom, sound techs and singers, but mission accomplished. IEM's are consistently cheaper and better at lower prices all the time. Bassists can tailor their DI sounds with preamps that don't cost much money or take up much room, or they can show up with an instrument cord and say, "Plug me into something and let's go." Guitarists are finally not balking at the latest in digital gear, and those who still are also have a lot of choices for running direct in other ways, all of which are perfectly usable. Even drummers will sometimes forego their acoustic drums for digital despite the flaws if it pays enough, and if they won't, you can just put them in a glass box.
And I'm certainly no stranger to downsizing, either. I've done arena gigs with a B-15 and been asked to turn down. Even did a short series of ampless gigs earlier this year. It wasn't horrible. Everything sounded fine. I've got a handful of small stuff I use pretty much exclusively at the moment ranging from top of the line to the cheapest of the cheapest practice amps, and it all sounds terrific because it's well chosen and I play more right notes than wrong
But dang do I miss hearing myself through a big juicy 810! And oh how I miss the sound of a good 412 on guitar! And I hate when the drummer goes digital or gets stuck in a box. And it's not that I want to hear them loudly, either. They sound great to me at low volumes, too. Once heard a guitarist using a 412 with a 5w tube amp and he sounded so much better than the players I work with using smaller cabs. And I've done many gigs with an SVT and 810 at B-15 volumes and it was still amazing sounding.
And you try telling that to your band and venue manager when you show up for a small patio jazz gig with a 412 or 810, and they look at you like you are a mental patient. "No no," I said, "It works quietly, too!" But they never listen. And God forbid you want to ride with someone else and insist on that 810! Even a 410 is enough to get you dirty looks these days.
So you do what you need to do to keep getting the calls. Honestly, I don't mind the reduced schleps at all. I can get in and out of gigs faster than a sax player if I don't have to tote my upright. And my stuff is all quality or at least well-chosen cheap and I don't think I ever sound the least bit bad. But dang, do I love to hear myself through the big stuff! No matter how big the small stuff is, it just doesn't have the physics of the big stuff.
Sounds like you're saying progress isn't recent - it's been a trend throughout all time.
Hey, I miss manual transmission. It's hard to find cars these days that have it, but it's out there. However, I also accept the fact that these days, cars will shift faster and more efficiently than I can, and they use less gas.
Some people miss the big old V8s from the 70s. Yet, a 4-cylinder Toyota Corolla today can beat those older muscle cars from 0-60.
The trend of lighter, smaller, and more powerful isn't just in music; it's everywhere. It's a trend that simply won't go away. And while I agree with you that you can't overcome physics - a 1x12 will never move the same amount of air as a 8x10 - I think that, like driving, more and more of today's musicians of today are choosing the equipment that they need, not the equipment that they want. Don't get me wrong; sure, if feels great to roar down the road with a massive V8 (and I agree with you that sometimes, shaking the floor feels awesome) but if you're only commuting down the block, maybe that Toyota Corolla (combo 1x12) will get you there with less fuss. Hell, maybe you can hop on the bus (preamp into PA) and not even have to drive your car!
I know that this is, in essence, one of those nostalgia threads that'll go for pages and pages.
I will say that in terms of the "stage look", might be interesting to get an old refrigerator box, paint it black, and put white piping on it. Someone will post the obligatory picture of Geddy Lee on stage with the washing machines, I'm betting on page 7 or 8.
By far my favorite rig I've ever had the pleasure to play through was an Ampeg 8x10 with a GK 1001RB that I borrowed from a friend. You just can't reproduce that tone with a 2x10 combo. However when I decided to start playing again and hefted my old 75 lb amp and 100 lb 4x10 cab for the first time in years, I remember thinking to myself "There have to have been increases in technology in all the years." That's when I discovered the 9th and 10th wonders of the world - class D amps and neodymium speakers. It's ain't a GK through an Ampeg, but I love it all the same. To paraphrase a much wiser man than me "I'm too old for that sh(stuff)t)
White piping is for kids. Back in my day, fridges had no piping, the grills would fall off the cab, and we liked it!Sounds like you're saying progress isn't recent - it's been a trend throughout all time.
Hey, I miss manual transmission. It's hard to find cars these days that have it, but it's out there. However, I also accept the fact that these days, cars will shift faster and more efficiently than I can, and they use less gas.
Some people miss the big old V8s from the 70s. Yet, a 4-cylinder Toyota Corolla today can beat those older muscle cars from 0-60.
The trend of lighter, smaller, and more powerful isn't just in music; it's everywhere. It's a trend that simply won't go away. And while I agree with you that you can't overcome physics - a 1x12 will never move the same amount of air as a 8x10 - I think that, like driving, more and more of today's musicians of today are choosing the equipment that they need, not the equipment that they want. Don't get me wrong; sure, if feels great to roar down the road with a massive V8 (and I agree with you that sometimes, shaking the floor feels awesome) but if you're only commuting down the block, maybe that Toyota Corolla (combo 1x12) will get you there with less fuss. Hell, maybe you can hop on the bus (preamp into PA) and not even have to drive your car!
I know that this is, in essence, one of those nostalgia threads that'll go for pages and pages.
I miss the fatty cabs too. My favorite was an SWR Goliath III 4x10 tricked out with Eminence BP102s at 4Ohms that did hundreds of gigs with me. Absolutely perfect blend of hifi modern tone plus extra large bottom with the Legends. Not hard to wheel around but a bear lifting solo into the vehicle and up stairs etc.
The only thing I miss about my 8,000 ton Mesa 2x15 cabinet is the squeak of the side handle hinges and the sound of the casters rolling on pavement at 3AM. It smelled like cigarettes. Nice ye olden times memories.
I’ve Been playing recent gigs/practices ampless, using a VT pedal preamp to the PA.
I’ve been quite happy with it, not missing my combo amp at all.
I recently auditoned for a new band, using their bass rig. (a massively heavy GK tube head, sitting atop GK 410 and 115 cabs).
WOOT!
I won’t be schlepping that to any gigs, but it did sound fabulous!
I’ve been quite happy with it, not missing my combo amp at all.
I recently auditoned for a new band, using their bass rig. (a massively heavy GK tube head, sitting atop GK 410 and 115 cabs).
WOOT!
I won’t be schlepping that to any gigs, but it did sound fabulous!
I don't miss the big stuff at all. It's all fine and well if you have a roadie to move the stuff, and a big venue to fill with delicious bass tone. But without those two things, it really is pointless. And no one cares. In the audience, I mean! 
I also miss moving air. I swore at one point that I'd be buried with my Alembic pre, QSC power amp, and Berg HT322. Or maybe inside of the road cases I used to haul that stuff in.
What I don't miss is loud stages, not being able to hear myself sing when the monitors couldn't keep up, volume creep, my ears ringing at the end of the night, leaving my rig in the car when I got home because I was too tired to haul it in, people screaming at me to turn down, etc.
I've been slowly downsizing and accepting the fact that it's cool to have a smaller rig. I'm using a 76 PBass with flats into an Aguilar AG700>AudioKinesis Hathor 1203. I just moved down from a Pedaltrain Jr to a Nano, with just a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner, VT Bass DI for some grit, and a Two Notes Torpedo Cab M that I use instead of the VT Bass cab sim when I'm playing gigs where I don't need a rig at all. It's the closest I've ever gotten to old school tone, and, other than the bass, it's all made using new school technology. It probably doesn't sound as old school as I like to think it does.
It's easily a one carry situation, even with a mic stand and bass stand. The lead singer and I have really tight harmonies, and the lower volume level means we can hear everything great and can often forgo in-ears and just use the stage monitors. I can almost always hear everything that everyone is playing in the band.
I do the occasional festival gig where the provided backline is something like a DB750 and a couple of Aguilar 4x10s, or an SVT. I always walk away thinking that it was really cool to play through a rig like that again, but also being glad that I wasn't the one who had to move it.
What I don't miss is loud stages, not being able to hear myself sing when the monitors couldn't keep up, volume creep, my ears ringing at the end of the night, leaving my rig in the car when I got home because I was too tired to haul it in, people screaming at me to turn down, etc.
I've been slowly downsizing and accepting the fact that it's cool to have a smaller rig. I'm using a 76 PBass with flats into an Aguilar AG700>AudioKinesis Hathor 1203. I just moved down from a Pedaltrain Jr to a Nano, with just a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner, VT Bass DI for some grit, and a Two Notes Torpedo Cab M that I use instead of the VT Bass cab sim when I'm playing gigs where I don't need a rig at all. It's the closest I've ever gotten to old school tone, and, other than the bass, it's all made using new school technology. It probably doesn't sound as old school as I like to think it does.
It's easily a one carry situation, even with a mic stand and bass stand. The lead singer and I have really tight harmonies, and the lower volume level means we can hear everything great and can often forgo in-ears and just use the stage monitors. I can almost always hear everything that everyone is playing in the band.
I do the occasional festival gig where the provided backline is something like a DB750 and a couple of Aguilar 4x10s, or an SVT. I always walk away thinking that it was really cool to play through a rig like that again, but also being glad that I wasn't the one who had to move it.
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The several times I saw Jaco live ( including with Joni Mitchell's stellar band, Weather Report, etc. ),
he was running a pair of 360/361's - and I don't think the 2nd one was a spare very often. No need for additional sound enforcement in almost any venue. I wish that guy was still building the "reincarnation" units. I would probably prove my insanity defense and buy one in a heartbeat
Would I want to be running them to a gig all the time? God grant me roadie's!
okcrum
in your chest
I might miss the air flapping business, but I get the same tone from a 210 as I get when I have a backline 810. I don't miss earplugs.
I was always careful to stay the heck away from the guitar amps when they were at or above ear level, and I avoided stacks of mine that were too tall.
I'm happy with the tradeoff, because I still have enough hearing to mix, and hear weird noises in my car so I can fix them.
I was always careful to stay the heck away from the guitar amps when they were at or above ear level, and I avoided stacks of mine that were too tall.
I'm happy with the tradeoff, because I still have enough hearing to mix, and hear weird noises in my car so I can fix them.
For us sound freaks....................
Yeah, a "few" amps & speakers here and there would be nice!
Yeah, a "few" amps & speakers here and there would be nice!
Enjoyed that Jimmy! And I remember very fondly standing in front of my Standel amp in the early 70's and having the air coming out the ports flap my bell-bottom pants. Was actually not a very big amp (215 cab) but man was it LOUD!Hate to break it to you kids, but downsizing and ampless gigs didn't just start a few years ago when micros and neo speakers came out on a wide scale.
It certainly didn't feel like downsizing when we wheeled in 80 lb solid state power amps and those big "sugar scoop" cabs for the PA, but it was. And ever since PA's got powerful enough to fill venues in a painfully loud but clean way, there have been ampless musicians. Keyboard players were the first to adapt, and who could blame them? Even the smallest keyboards of the day were big and bulky and you needed a good handful of them to get gigs. So why wouldn't you run them to the PA and just monitor them with a floor monitor at your first opportunity?
But bassists and guitarists had these little instruments and often only one back then, so we hung onto our big stuff, and there wasn't much downsizing going on with us, though there were folks who cut their 810's and 215's in half and did smaller gigs with them. There were some lower wattage combo users, but most of them either had adequate PA or played quieter in smaller rooms. And they were still pretty big compared to combos today.
But the slow crawl we did to ampless setups happened anyway. I started seeing bassists do it around here. First major band I saw doing it was Devo in 1980. At first I thought they were all DI but found a couple mic'ed MusicMan combos off in the wings. A bit disconcerting, but OK. Then a few more, and a few more, and I saw a set of IEM's first time in like 1990 with Sinead O'Connor on SNL. That was really disconcerting. I was afraid it was a sound tech/singer conspiracy to get us all using them, and I hated the idea of listening to my awesome tones on a portable music player.
Well it took 25 years to become truly widespread through all of live performance-dom, sound techs and singers, but mission accomplished. IEM's are consistently cheaper and better at lower prices all the time. Bassists can tailor their DI sounds with preamps that don't cost much money or take up much room, or they can show up with an instrument cord and say, "Plug me into something and let's go." Guitarists are finally not balking at the latest in digital gear, and those who still are also have a lot of choices for running direct in other ways, all of which are perfectly usable. Even drummers will sometimes forego their acoustic drums for digital despite the flaws if it pays enough, and if they won't, you can just put them in a glass box.
And I'm certainly no stranger to downsizing, either. I've done arena gigs with a B-15 and been asked to turn down. Even did a short series of ampless gigs earlier this year. It wasn't horrible. Everything sounded fine. I've got a handful of small stuff I use pretty much exclusively at the moment ranging from top of the line to the cheapest of the cheapest practice amps, and it all sounds terrific because it's well chosen and I play more right notes than wrong
But dang do I miss hearing myself through a big juicy 810! And oh how I miss the sound of a good 412 on guitar! And I hate when the drummer goes digital or gets stuck in a box. And it's not that I want to hear them loudly, either. They sound great to me at low volumes, too. Once heard a guitarist using a 412 with a 5w tube amp and he sounded so much better than the players I work with using smaller cabs. And I've done many gigs with an SVT and 810 at B-15 volumes and it was still amazing sounding.
And you try telling that to your band and venue manager when you show up for a small patio jazz gig with a 412 or 810, and they look at you like you are a mental patient. "No no," I said, "It works quietly, too!" But they never listen. And God forbid you want to ride with someone else and insist on that 810! Even a 410 is enough to get you dirty looks these days.
So you do what you need to do to keep getting the calls. Honestly, I don't mind the reduced schleps at all. I can get in and out of gigs faster than a sax player if I don't have to tote my upright. And my stuff is all quality or at least well-chosen cheap and I don't think I ever sound the least bit bad. But dang, do I love to hear myself through the big stuff! No matter how big the small stuff is, it just doesn't have the physics of the big stuff.
Now I have just added a DNS-210 to my DNS-410 for this stack:
I'll probably only ever play it that way once, just so I can say I did. My DNS-410 will handle 1400-watts and max SPL is 137db on it. Even at a Festival I never get to turn it up over 10 o'clock on the master of my Eden 800-watt amp. Tried it once and got told to turn it down. I suppose I could put the 210 on the bottom just to raise up the 410 a bit and only power the 410....Naw, too much trouble.
I bought this DNS-210 specifically for the reasons you speak of above. Easier to transport, has the same sonic characteristics as my 410, will work for 80% of the venues I play and no more deer in the headlights look on club owner's face when I bring it in. Plus, it will handle 700-watts and has a max SPL of 134db and that's more than enough.
And if they insist I run through the FOH and not use an amp or for that matter use their backline, I'll just plug this little guy in and "almost" be happy:
I used to run two 18's, but have been using a 2x12 for a few years now. If I could afford it, I would have three 12" subway cabs, for flexibility.
