I need $175

[Brad Johnson]

Just wanted to respond to the part in bold -- I find this is another pattern. The musicians will often quote that one time gig where they got a massive amount of money for a short gig. OUr sax player, the one with a minmum, did NYE for $600 for a two hour show. I have a feeling I'll be hearing about that for a few years to come. But it was a one time thing. Certainly not the norm, but that's what I hear when people draw the line in the sand.


BTW, I don't begrudge people setting a limit, my question was how do you respond as BL.

My response is normally to tell them that when I have gigs that pay that much, I can offer them the gig, but if I have guys slugging it out for $100 a night, is it fair to give the creme to someone else? So, it depends how much they want to sit at home. Outcome -- they normally lose their spot to someone who has a reasonable minimum, wonder why I'm not calling, and then accept $100 sub gigs. Most of the time.

Wouldn't your response depend on who you were responding to?


You seem to be mistaking me talking about one time as if it was only one time.

I did $100 gigs and up when I had corporate jobs. It dawned on me that the $100 gigs were usually longer and required much more work. At some point I decided to maximize my time by focusing on higher paying gigs and when I cracked that circle higher pay was the norm, not an occasional thing. I went full time in 2008 and life has been good.

 

[PauFerro]

Wouldn't your response depend on who you were responding to?


You seem to be mistaking me talking about one time as if it was only one time.

If you get that all the time, and made that clear, then I'd say thanks, you're in a different league than we are, and admit it's probably not a good fit. I'd even encourage you to talk a little bit about the market you happen to be in so I can learn from it. But I'd be careful and use judgment about whether I'd actually ask that question. Whether I go down that path would depend on your manner, the extent of our relationship, who referred me to you, and another of factors.

People are often guarded about their secrets and rightly so (so am I depending who I talk to) to prevent overcrowding of a lucrative and sometimes hidden market.

Most of the guys I've talked to when pressed, tell me that large scale payment was something that happened once or a long time ago. In your original post, you said it happened "once" in Atlanta, which triggered my response.

 

[ajschnitzelbank]

He was a first call wind player, but when he came out with that statement he lost his position. Now he still accepts $100 gigs when I have them, on a sub basis. The whole thing was a bluff on his part, I guess. Another guy, a sax player, did the same thing, so we found another sax player who for two years displaced the $175 guy. That sax player sits at home except for sporadic calls from a couple other bands now and then, but nothing regular. Even changed his tune when I called him for lower paid sub work saying "I'll go out for $75 if I can get playing again".

In the same breath, the first guy -- I knew he had gigs too -- he's an entrepreneur type of sorts and he never calls me for gigs. He formed a trio of percussion, guitar, and his flute instrument, mimicking a Latin concept I had put together years ago, except with bass in it. He did it better, actually, with REAL latin players who looked and sounded the part. Yet he never calls me. I raised that issue with him -- you want $175 a night, yet you have these other gigs and you never call me? Can we talk about this?

Hah, they sound like a bunch of doofuses.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you get that all the time, and made that clear, then I'd say thanks, you're in a different league than we are, and admit it's probably not a good fit. I'd even encourage you to talk a little bit about the market you happen to be in so I can learn from it. But I'd be careful and use judgment about whether I'd actually ask that question. Whether I go down that path would depend on your manner, the extent of our relationship, who referred me to you, and another of factors.

People are often guarded about their secrets and rightly so (so am I depending who I talk to) to prevent overcrowding of a lucrative and sometimes hidden market.

Most of the guys I've talked to when pressed, tell me that large scale payment was something that happened once or a long time ago. In your original post, you said it happened "once" in Atlanta, which triggered my response.

I get that the majority of the time. It's a decision I made to work smarter. I understand that the same opportunities are not everywhere, again, that's why I do it here and things aren't as busy here as they used to be which is why my main job works out so well, playing at a church two to four times a week. It's a great base. Overall I'm not playing the music I necessarily want to play all the time but, on the positive side, I'm playing music.

I don't think this market is a secret. It's the nation's capital and it's surrounding area. There are lots of opportunities but they require a skill level and attitude. Like Liam Neeson.

I've put systems into place where I can shed on complicated music quickly so that has made most of my gigs way less exciting... not sweating bullets because I can't remember the bridge on a song I just learned, etc. And because I can get called in to do a 40 song show list competently, people hire me and pay me accordingly. So no, it's not a bar band type thing or even a band situation, it's business. And when I get called as a sideman or a sub, I weigh what's being offered and figure out a rate I won't regret later. And as someone who's played with affordable trainwrecks before, as a BL I'd consider what comfort level the person I'm trying to hire brings to the table. If I know they'll show up on time and kill it, that's worth more to me, so much so I'd look at the big picture vs. that particular gig. That is often what seems to be missing in these discussions. That gig could easily determine future opportunities, possibly more lucrative. But principles being what they are, if Buckethead or Gerald Albright were available for a local gig but I needed to pay everyone equally...


Situations (should) matter.

 

[2F/2F]

You are really overthinking this, and getting your likes and frustrations all tied up in it.

The whole thing is self regulating, and emotions need not be attached to any of it.

As a musician, you set your rate that makes it worth leaving the house. If it doesn't get met, then you don't need to go out. That's a personal decision that each musician needs to make...and needs to be allowed to make, with respect from BLs.

As a band leader, you have a certain amount you decide you can pay for your musicians, and you need to budget that as you see fit. If you can't afford the guy who wants $175, then you find someone you can afford.

Your thoughts should never venture into what such and such musician should be charging. They have every right to set their rates, based on whatever criteria they want. They will feel the effects of their minimum, for better or for worse. But its their decision, and it's highly personal – i.e. none of anyone else's business.

For you, it's really that simple: Pay for the best you can get within budget. The world doesn't owe you the musicians you want at the rates you want to pay. Get what you can get for what you've got to give.

 

[electracoyote]

Even if it's the difference between being able to do the gig or not?

I have used one sub musician who set her price well above an equal cut for our typical gigs. It came out of my pocket as I refused to put that burden on the regular members. I used her once in an emergency, never again.

Sorry, please read my earlier post. I have done it in a dire emergency. But it is an extremely rare occurrence when a sub holds me hostage and extorts more money from me than I consider fair without consequence. I will certainly never call that sub again, even in a more typical non-emergency situation, and I have since networked other more flexible players in that position to be considered for the rare emergency situation.

The whole emergency justification for gouging a band leader for more pay than the other musicians just smacks of something a smarmy unethical plumber would do for a house call on a Sunday or in the middle of the night. I think musicians, especially weekend warriors playing for pocket change, should be above that, but that's just me and I'll say again, people are free to ask whatever fee they want and deal with the consequences afterward.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing it to a band of fellow musicians, even in an emergency. I'd consider it karma and more honorable to be supportive in all ways, including taking an equal cut. Paying it forward as it were. Heaven knows that sometimes I make far more than I should for some of my gigs, so it all evens out for me.

 

[Wasnex]

OK, I hear statements like this from time to time from musicians about the amount of pay they need to go out for the night -- "I need $175 to go out".

I'll be frank, I don't like the statement AT ALL. It ignores a number of facts:

1. Usually, the gig is booked and pay already negotiated. I can't go back and ask for more.
2. Granting the extra pay normally means taking a cut to my personal pay, or cutting the pay of the other guys.
3. As a consequence of #2, some musicians can get a different rate of pay than the others. This can cause hard feelings.
4. Often there isn't room in the market rates for that increase; if I start quoting to include that rate, we sit at home (most of the time).
5. In my genre, good musicians are plentiful, so musicians who raise prices ignore supply and demand.
6. If I reserve the high paying gigs for certain musicians, that's not fair to the guys who slugged out the $100-$125 gigs.

As a band leader, when you get statements like this -- how do you respond? And what is normally the outcome of such conversations? Do you lose the player, or do they stick with you?

I used to work what I would call corporate gigs. Basically a musical director ran the band and hired musicians on a rotating basis. I think I was probably about his C call, so he had at least two or three other bass players.

He paid me $75 for two hours or $175 for two plus hours. On occasion, special gigs came in where he paid a higher rate and included paid rehearsals. This fee structure become pretty much my required minimum to play. So when other bands wanted to hire me, I asked what they were offering. If their offer met my minimum I would discuss the job and decide if I was a good fit. If the job did not meet my minimum, I usually turned it down unless I was doing a favor for someone.

To work regularly at this rate, I have to like the people and/or enjoy the gig...otherwise, let's be honest, the money is not really enough to warrant doing the work if it's a drag...and yes I turned down offers to become a regular player in a few groups

When it comes down to it, there's this thing called supply and demand. You have a pool of musicians with certain skills. If you don't maintain a large enough pool of musicians with the right skills, then your going to have to pay more to attract enough musicians with the right skills. If you have enough musicians and someone tries to stick you for more money, you thank them for their service and let them go without burning the bridge (you might need them later even if it means paying what they are asking). That's the way supply and demand works in the labor market.

You may have to pay a different rate for different instruments, or you may have to maintain a call list with players at different costs structures. Try to be professional and ethical about this stuff, and don't let it get personal as it is a business decision that should be based on data and facts instead of emotion.

 

[richntiff]

And... now I’m thankful I’m in a small fairly rural market. I play in two bands. One is classic rock - $100/4 hr gig without fail. The other is country / rock/ pop and is 160-$200 per show without fail. All good musicians. Fun, high energy, and we structure for no breaks in a four hour set. No pros, but solid players. My country/rock/ pop is full for the summer - turning down gigs. I’m thinking I’m blessed ?

 

[nnnnnn]

But it is an extremely rare occurrence when a sub holds me hostage and extorts more money from me than I consider fair without consequence.

It's not extortion to quote a minimum rate of X, no matter how high X is, assuming that that amount is stated up front, not revised upwards from a previously agreed lower amount at the point where it's too late to find an alternative. You can say no to their offer; they can say no to yours.

 

[trailer]

Just book the best guy that you can afford. I won't leave the house on a pick up gig for less than 150.00. If that makes me a douche in your world I'm sorry.

 

[pcake]

PauFerro - when i've been a band leader or unofficial BL, if someone hits me with a minimum that's well above the going market rate, and if i can find another sub we get along with who has the same repetoire and abilities, i'll tell the guy with the minimum thank you very much and call someone else who can fill the spot for what i have budgeted.

I think when someone makes a statement like this, they have already considered the alternative of “staying home”, and they are fine with that.

not in my experience. most of the guys i used to know who quoted above market rate never seemed to grasp why they weren't playing out, and they weren't fine with it. they complained a lot if they found out i was working, and even tried to pin the reason on my gender or a variety of things that just weren't the case.

You get what you pay for.

i have never found that to be true. i used to play with an awesome guitarist. his playing was as good as it gets, he was always early, his gear was always in good condition. he brought a backup bass and small combo for emergencies.
he would do a 1-set show by his house for $50 if he knew the songs or could learn them from albums. yet i knew another guitar player who wasn't half as good and demanded $200. the market in l.a. being pretty saturated, he didn't work much.

I don't see it as illusions of grandeur. It's a price that they've decided as their floor to do the gig. Anything less isn't worth (I think he was a drummer) packing up the drums, putting them in the car, driving X miles, getting to a show early for a sound check and set up, playing for four hours, tearing down, load out, band load out, driving home, unpacking. Total time - Seven hours. Pull out taxes, gas money, anything the bar charges for food and drink and you're probably still well under $20/hour net. At a certain point it's not worth it.

You are only looking at the statement from your own point of view. Try looking at it from the player's.

He's apparently good enough that he doesn't need you or he wouldn't be pricing himself outside of your ability to pay him.

LOL i know lots of players who aren't good enough, and they price themselves well above the going rate hoping to get that higher paycheck. they almost never do...

I wish clubs paid better too.

Here's an interesting question: If a sub thinks they are worth X amount of dollars and that's their standard rate, are they willing to accept that rate even if the cut per player would be much higher?

In other words, if the sub player is only interested in a set fee based on all the factors that go into a gig, shouldn't they be held to that rate even if they would make more on an equal cut basis?

I used a sub drummer for a wedding once, and he stated his fee, which was about 20% higher than the typical bar pay. I didn't tell him that we were making about 4X the fee of a typical bar gig. Would I be justified in paying him 1/4 what I paid all the others?

if someone quotes me a price and i offer to pay that, should it matter what the gig pays the band? i'm not seeing it as unethical, and if i quoted a flat rate to play - which i rarely did, btw - that's what i expect to be paid. and if a show pays more so i would have gotten $250 at that show, another show would have paid less. it evens out in the end.

 

[Cage]

OK, I hear statements like this from time to time from musicians about the amount of pay they need to go out for the night -- "I need $175 to go out".

I'll be frank, I don't like the statement AT ALL. It ignores a number of facts:

1. Usually, the gig is booked and pay already negotiated. I can't go back and ask for more.
2. Granting the extra pay normally means taking a cut to my personal pay, or cutting the pay of the other guys.
3. As a consequence of #2, some musicians can get a different rate of pay than the others. This can cause hard feelings.
4. Often there isn't room in the market rates for that increase; if I start quoting to include that rate, we sit at home (most of the time).
5. In my genre, good musicians are plentiful, so musicians who raise prices ignore supply and demand.
6. If I reserve the high paying gigs for certain musicians, that's not fair to the guys who slugged out the $100-$125 gigs.

As a band leader, when you get statements like this -- how do you respond? And what is normally the outcome of such conversations? Do you lose the player, or do they stick with you?

And what would you do

 

[cnltb]

Nothing wrong with sayiung 'No' to a gig that doesn't pay.
I wish more would do it.
Also, I think it is ok to pay a sub a bit more as he'll have to do relatively more work to do the gig.

 

[Aidenn7]

Every gig is different so it the pay.. Don't like the cost? Don't have the money to pay? Can't afford to play at the rate? Equal cut won't do? So sad too bad.. It's happens.. It's Business is business.. It's not personal

 

[Session1969]

I'm a step away from it , too.

 

[BassplayinBob]

This is simply a practical application of a free market. Supply and demand.

 

[retslock]

OK, I hear statements like this from time to time from musicians about the amount of pay they need to go out for the night -- "I need $175 to go out".

I'll be frank, I don't like the statement AT ALL. It ignores a number of facts:

1. Usually, the gig is booked and pay already negotiated. I can't go back and ask for more.
2. Granting the extra pay normally means taking a cut to my personal pay, or cutting the pay of the other guys.
3. As a consequence of #2, some musicians can get a different rate of pay than the others. This can cause hard feelings.
4. Often there isn't room in the market rates for that increase; if I start quoting to include that rate, we sit at home (most of the time).
5. In my genre, good musicians are plentiful, so musicians who raise prices ignore supply and demand.
6. If I reserve the high paying gigs for certain musicians, that's not fair to the guys who slugged out the $100-$125 gigs.

As a band leader, when you get statements like this -- how do you respond? And what is normally the outcome of such conversations? Do you lose the player, or do they stick with you?

There’s no level playing field if you make a living out of music. You ask for what you think you’re worth and you get it or you don’t. There nothing else to consider. Whatever you as the band leader have to contend with has nothing to do with your hired help. If you can’t afford them you get someone you can afford. Of course that may mean a lesser player.

 

[40Hz]

I never take it personally. If someone’s going rate is too expensive for a thing I’m doing, I just say “thank you” and go find someone else.

I seldom ever try to negotiate someone’s rate because I found it’s often counterproductive. If I can’t afford someone, and they won’t budge, trying to dicker is a waste of time. And if they do come down it often leads to resentment. So just give me a number and I’ll say yea or nay. Simple business transaction. No need for emotion.

But that’s me. YMMV.

 

[baileyboy]

... when you get statements like this -- how do you respond? And what is normally the outcome of such conversations? Do you lose the player, or do they stick with you?

Are you serious? Members actually pull this crappola after a gig is already on the books? Our gigs are pretty standard ($100 a man, 5 piece). On the rare occasion there is a lower offer we are considering, we message back and forth about it first to make sure everyone is on board. My guess is there is some poor communication at the get-go between you and the other members of your band.

 

[lbbc]

I don't have that issue. We started by saying we'll each get no less than $75 per person per 3 hour gig...and that was 5 years ago. Sometimes we get more and sometimes a lot more. But anyone new coming in knows and agrees to that...or I won't use them. Everyone gets the same amount...even me as BL, owner of PA and booking agent for the band.