Treat everyone with an open mind, give back what you can, that's all anybody asks. Good luck with whatever you do with it. If you rewrite it, you should post it here!
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I need a proper bassists opinion :help:
- Thread starter stuarthoskins
- Start date
Treat everyone with an open mind, give back what you can, that's all anybody asks. Good luck with whatever you do with it. If you rewrite it, you should post it here!
I'm glad you have some exposure to sonata form. It's a really good form, but difficult as hell to work with. However, once you have your basic materials and your exposition is sounding good, the rest is cake. I try to get my students to think in terms of gestures and the shape and feel of the music, then jam a few gestures together and see how they can develop them. Let's go ahead and analyze a sonata form tune real quick.
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata, mvt.1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWBweNBHIM (pt.1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcOmPSj1Jy8 (pt.2)
[First video]
Exposition
0:00 - Theme Group 1 (C major)
0:48 - Transition
0:55 - Theme Group 2 (E major)
2:03 - Closing Theme
(Repeat)
2:25 - Theme Group 1
3:00 - Transition
3:19 - Theme Group 2
4:27 - Closing Theme
Development
4:57 - Phase 1 - Fragments Theme 1, transposes fragments everywhere, harmonically unstable.
5:32 - Phase 2 - Second half of Theme 2, harmonically unstable, later fragmented
6:18 - Phase 3 - "Structural dominant", an extension of the dominant harmony that prepares us for recapitulation.
Recapitulation
6:39 - Woo! Theme Group 1 (C major)
7:05 - Something completely new to catch the ear.
7:10 - Theme Group 1, again.
7:37 - Transition
7:44 - Theme Group 2 (Now in tonic key; starts in A major, modulates to C major)
[Second video]
0:27 - Closing Theme
0:52 - Theme Group 1 (A little bit of extra development and modulation)
1:49 - Theme Group 2
2:22 - Coda
Hear how the themes are very distinct? The first theme group feels rushed and insistent, whereas the second theme is all pretty and nice and laid back. If you have that strong contrast between themes (both in key and rhythm and feel), your sections will work out nicely.
What do you want to go to school for? I think you'll get more pertinent advice if you tell us your planned major.
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata, mvt.1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWBweNBHIM (pt.1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcOmPSj1Jy8 (pt.2)
[First video]
Exposition
0:00 - Theme Group 1 (C major)
0:48 - Transition
0:55 - Theme Group 2 (E major)
2:03 - Closing Theme
(Repeat)
2:25 - Theme Group 1
3:00 - Transition
3:19 - Theme Group 2
4:27 - Closing Theme
Development
4:57 - Phase 1 - Fragments Theme 1, transposes fragments everywhere, harmonically unstable.
5:32 - Phase 2 - Second half of Theme 2, harmonically unstable, later fragmented
6:18 - Phase 3 - "Structural dominant", an extension of the dominant harmony that prepares us for recapitulation.
Recapitulation
6:39 - Woo! Theme Group 1 (C major)
7:05 - Something completely new to catch the ear.
7:10 - Theme Group 1, again.
7:37 - Transition
7:44 - Theme Group 2 (Now in tonic key; starts in A major, modulates to C major)
[Second video]
0:27 - Closing Theme
0:52 - Theme Group 1 (A little bit of extra development and modulation)
1:49 - Theme Group 2
2:22 - Coda
Hear how the themes are very distinct? The first theme group feels rushed and insistent, whereas the second theme is all pretty and nice and laid back. If you have that strong contrast between themes (both in key and rhythm and feel), your sections will work out nicely.
What do you want to go to school for? I think you'll get more pertinent advice if you tell us your planned major.
very nice piece of ambient music .......... sometimes music flows into realms that leave academia in the dust ,I personally have no problem with form or lack of it in your piece or any other ,it kept my attention even if from an academic point of view some here are saying it lacks form ,Miles Davis once said there are no wrong notes ......your professor has closed ears ,thats his problem , he's the wrong guy for you to study with , find a teacher who understands what you do and can help you grow ....and you may not find that person in formal academia ......just my opinion
Stu, looks like you got what you wanted out of this thread, so the incoming rant is purely for my own satisfaction. I retyped it to be more PG.
It's well-used orifices like your instructor who jump at every chance to knock the little guy down who ruin society for everyone else. I kid you not, no matter what your walk of life (politics, business, music, whatever) there are two kinds of people - the ones outside looking in, and the whack-offs in the center too sick on the smell of their own farts to see what's staring them in the face. "Oh, I've got experience. I've got success. You, there on the outside, couldn't possibly have anything of worth to offer me since you don't also have experience and success."
And then there's the scumsuckers who's only apparent drive in life is to parrot what they hear their idols yammering, hopeful that the cookie they get in return will eventually lead them to occupy a similar position of prestige (PROTIP IT WON'T). The net result is a cacophony of copycats congratulating each other, too scared or too preoccupied putting their hands down each other's pants to read the writing on the wall. 'Cause when that wall comes tumbling down, when those floodwaters rise, they're gonna be shown for what they really are.
And you, my friend, you are the clarion call of a new age. Next time someone tells you "hey, slow it down and just groove," or "what's the melodic structure here?" or "what's your piece trying to convey?" you tell them just where they can stick it. They're all just scared of you because you're not sucking scum with the rest of them. If something speaks to you, you do it, and you make it your way. Yeah, if you don't play by the rules, maybe no one will ever hear it. But if being heard means singing with someone else's voice, it's better to be silent. If everyone else took the same attitude maybe we wouldn't be drowning in the white noise of all those imitators, and someone with something new to say could be heard more easily.
Don't worry about college. College is a place where the people who have been broken by the rules go to have their little bit of vindication by breaking others in the same way. Society needs the fresh faced idealism of the younger generation so it doesn't stagnate into oblivion. To kill that innocence is a sin. If you're gonna go to college, go there, get the information you need, and get the hell out. Don't drink their kool-aid.
I thought your song was heavy metal. I'd buy your album, I'd go see your band, I'd try to learn your basslines. Anyone who could hear what you posted and remain disimpassioned is either a) a tool or b) expressing a valid opinion regarding their own subjective tastes. Subjective. As in, there is no right or wrong, there's only individual opinions, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
Art is fracking subjective.
It's well-used orifices like your instructor who jump at every chance to knock the little guy down who ruin society for everyone else. I kid you not, no matter what your walk of life (politics, business, music, whatever) there are two kinds of people - the ones outside looking in, and the whack-offs in the center too sick on the smell of their own farts to see what's staring them in the face. "Oh, I've got experience. I've got success. You, there on the outside, couldn't possibly have anything of worth to offer me since you don't also have experience and success."
And then there's the scumsuckers who's only apparent drive in life is to parrot what they hear their idols yammering, hopeful that the cookie they get in return will eventually lead them to occupy a similar position of prestige (PROTIP IT WON'T). The net result is a cacophony of copycats congratulating each other, too scared or too preoccupied putting their hands down each other's pants to read the writing on the wall. 'Cause when that wall comes tumbling down, when those floodwaters rise, they're gonna be shown for what they really are.
And you, my friend, you are the clarion call of a new age. Next time someone tells you "hey, slow it down and just groove," or "what's the melodic structure here?" or "what's your piece trying to convey?" you tell them just where they can stick it. They're all just scared of you because you're not sucking scum with the rest of them. If something speaks to you, you do it, and you make it your way. Yeah, if you don't play by the rules, maybe no one will ever hear it. But if being heard means singing with someone else's voice, it's better to be silent. If everyone else took the same attitude maybe we wouldn't be drowning in the white noise of all those imitators, and someone with something new to say could be heard more easily.
Don't worry about college. College is a place where the people who have been broken by the rules go to have their little bit of vindication by breaking others in the same way. Society needs the fresh faced idealism of the younger generation so it doesn't stagnate into oblivion. To kill that innocence is a sin. If you're gonna go to college, go there, get the information you need, and get the hell out. Don't drink their kool-aid.
I thought your song was heavy metal. I'd buy your album, I'd go see your band, I'd try to learn your basslines. Anyone who could hear what you posted and remain disimpassioned is either a) a tool or b) expressing a valid opinion regarding their own subjective tastes. Subjective. As in, there is no right or wrong, there's only individual opinions, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
Art is fracking subjective.
Stuart: A couple of thoughts - in the "comfort food" and "tough love" categories.
In the comfort food category - you have the start of what might be an interesting piece here. I say start because it seems to me that you have laid down a cool sounding background, and if you were to add some interesting vocals or an instrumental melody, you'll have a cool piece of music there.
I am impressed with your production skills- you were able to achieve a very cool sound from the recording, which is a great skill in itself.
I think you're on to something with this piece, and it is clearly creative.
Now for the tough love. In a certain sense, your instructor's comments are correct - in the context of an audition piece for formal musical education. Formal education teaches some things and not others. While this piece is creative and has potential, it probably does not clearly reflect what they are looking for in an audition. Some might like it, but others won't (as your teacher showed).
The instructor's comments do not, however, have any impact on the creativity of the piece or that the piece might actually turn out to be a cool piece of music - he is focused only on the audition aspect. So, don't jump to the conclusion that he is a dream crusher or something like that.
Music involves a lot of criticism, but unfortunately, it can be hard to take criticism about something to which you have a strong emotional attachment. That's something every serious musician has to get over, though. Criticism is part of the business, so don't let it get you down but also don't just write it off. There can be wisdom in the criticism.
Now for some tough love "wisdom". The recording is a good rough draft, but to get to a final version, you need to clean up some of the playing and some of the parts. While you are off to a good start, this is still not a finished product.
The upshot - while it might not be good for all purposes, this is a nice start on a cool piece of music and a cool recording. Tighten it up a bit, consider adding some vocals or melodic instrumentation and make this into a cool finished work.
In the comfort food category - you have the start of what might be an interesting piece here. I say start because it seems to me that you have laid down a cool sounding background, and if you were to add some interesting vocals or an instrumental melody, you'll have a cool piece of music there.
I am impressed with your production skills- you were able to achieve a very cool sound from the recording, which is a great skill in itself.
I think you're on to something with this piece, and it is clearly creative.
Now for the tough love. In a certain sense, your instructor's comments are correct - in the context of an audition piece for formal musical education. Formal education teaches some things and not others. While this piece is creative and has potential, it probably does not clearly reflect what they are looking for in an audition. Some might like it, but others won't (as your teacher showed).
The instructor's comments do not, however, have any impact on the creativity of the piece or that the piece might actually turn out to be a cool piece of music - he is focused only on the audition aspect. So, don't jump to the conclusion that he is a dream crusher or something like that.
Music involves a lot of criticism, but unfortunately, it can be hard to take criticism about something to which you have a strong emotional attachment. That's something every serious musician has to get over, though. Criticism is part of the business, so don't let it get you down but also don't just write it off. There can be wisdom in the criticism.
Now for some tough love "wisdom". The recording is a good rough draft, but to get to a final version, you need to clean up some of the playing and some of the parts. While you are off to a good start, this is still not a finished product.
The upshot - while it might not be good for all purposes, this is a nice start on a cool piece of music and a cool recording. Tighten it up a bit, consider adding some vocals or melodic instrumentation and make this into a cool finished work.
It does lack form. Form is, without a doubt, the one thing that most amateur songwriters don't have a handle on. It's much better to have command over form and choose not to use it than it is to be in the dark and only have one's untrained instinct to draw upon. Nobody here is saying that the music is better or worse for its form, just observing that 1.) it does not have any real form, and 2.) that if the OP wants to go to school to compose music in any capacity, it would greatly benefit this person to learn a thing or two about form and experiment with it a bit.
Miles Davis also went to Julliard.
The email was worded badly, so I am inclined to agree. Thankfully, it seems that the OP is beyond this person. However, the teacher might be a great dude. Sometimes, people need a kick in the ass to get them going. The closing remark seems to indicate some tough love:
^ Instead of stomping all over this guy for being truthful (if not a little mean in the process), some of the people on this board might be better to read into what the man is saying and possibly consider that he has a better idea of what goes into accepting someone into a music program than they do.
Stuart:
I'm glad we were thinking in similar ways; it's cool to hear your influences (minimalism) in the music you have written.
If you are looking for something to play that's classical and completely solo, you should certainly consider a movement from a bach cello suite. Someone earlier also mentioned this and this music is rapidly becoming standard University audition material.
I've played the first suite in G at pitch (an octave higher than written) on the Double Bass and electric and it can be doable with some work.
There's also book of the first 3 suites transposed into bass friendly keys:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
the Bourrees are commonly played by Double Bass students for auditions (both University and for Honors Orchestras)
http://vimeo.com/31206738 (btw this is not me it's just a good version of the bourees I found)
You should seriously consider them for audition material. They are also great examples of form (each movement is a particular baroque dance form) and harmonic/melodic structure.
I'm glad we were thinking in similar ways; it's cool to hear your influences (minimalism) in the music you have written.
If you are looking for something to play that's classical and completely solo, you should certainly consider a movement from a bach cello suite. Someone earlier also mentioned this and this music is rapidly becoming standard University audition material.
I've played the first suite in G at pitch (an octave higher than written) on the Double Bass and electric and it can be doable with some work.
There's also book of the first 3 suites transposed into bass friendly keys:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
the Bourrees are commonly played by Double Bass students for auditions (both University and for Honors Orchestras)
http://vimeo.com/31206738 (btw this is not me it's just a good version of the bourees I found)
You should seriously consider them for audition material. They are also great examples of form (each movement is a particular baroque dance form) and harmonic/melodic structure.
The problem is that those are only personal viewpoints, not objective statements about whether the music is "good" or "bad".
The writer of the ridiculous email said music has to "say something". What exactly does it have to "say"? He then says it has to "go somewhere". Where exactly does it have to "go"?
Those are challenges that the plaintiff _has_ to answer before I'd ever give him another minute of my time.
Then, you'd have to somehow prove that the OP's work _doesn't_ say whatever it is it's _supposed_ to say, or doesn't go wherever it's supposed to go.
Until I got any answers to those questions, I'd tell the guy to toss off and not talk to me again. Simple as that.
Eg. some have said music has to "communicate emotion". What does that mean exactly? And how does the OP's music _not_ communicate emotion? That _you_ simply don't like it or aren't moved to an emotional state by it does _not_ mean it doesn't "communicate emotion".
That's the problem with this whole academic approach to music - it's an attempt to manage art, not craft. It also takes the totally bizarre strategy of requiring the student to be competent in whatever that art is _before_ admitting them to music school. Why would you need to go to school if you're already a virtuoso? That's just stupid - that's not why you're seeking an education.
In this regard I actually agree with Jeff Berlin. Music education, in my view, has to be about the _craft_ of music - teaching you how to read, the nuts and bolts of playing your instrument and what music is made up of. NOT teaching art or trying to figure out what pleases this or that person. That comes afterward.
And if that's your approach to music ed - teaching art and requiring that your students already be competent in music before they work with you - you're an irresponsible fool who should not be involved in education in any way.
So I reiterate my advice to pursue another subject that does have some objective method of measurement of progress (like a science perhaps) and not whether some moron likes what you play or not....
LS
First off, you're one heckuva good player. I was envious of your abilities listening to that piece.
I got my music degree (brass player) and nearly finished my masters before I ran out of funds and took a job teaching. I've seen how music departments are structured. They will want you to basically progress like music itself has progressed. Start with your Renaissance/Baroque skills, then branch into Classical, then Romanticism...and once you've shown mastery/comprehension of those styles of music, they introduce modern/20th century music styles and begin to encourage experimentation into creating your own niche. You've apparently submitted something earlier than they expect. They'll want to see basic things as an entry piece. And one of the earliest replies to this post nailed it. Form, melody, harmony, etc...
Listening to your piece, I have to agree with many others here...the biggest element missing for me was a discernable form. Forms in Music was my college textbook years ago, and it lines things up pretty well...if you can still find it.
Arch form (ABA and it's variations) can be found in a lot of pop music. Another form that's a variation is from a March. Take a standard Sousa march and break down it's form. You'll be surprised how much it matches the form of the Police, or Katy Perry, or whoever...
I would love to hear that piece reworked with form...add an intro that highlights what is coming...play an A section, play a B section, bridge clearly, restate the opening theme...
Music teachers aren't always the most tactful humans. They spend a lot of time alone practicing their craft instead of socializing.
I don't know where he is anymore, but we had a professor named Dr. Marc Satterwhite who was seriously into this type of music. Google him. He's the most approachable and constructive composition guy I've ever met...which is probably why he didn't stick around my college for more than a couple of years.
Good luck!
I got my music degree (brass player) and nearly finished my masters before I ran out of funds and took a job teaching. I've seen how music departments are structured. They will want you to basically progress like music itself has progressed. Start with your Renaissance/Baroque skills, then branch into Classical, then Romanticism...and once you've shown mastery/comprehension of those styles of music, they introduce modern/20th century music styles and begin to encourage experimentation into creating your own niche. You've apparently submitted something earlier than they expect. They'll want to see basic things as an entry piece. And one of the earliest replies to this post nailed it. Form, melody, harmony, etc...
Listening to your piece, I have to agree with many others here...the biggest element missing for me was a discernable form. Forms in Music was my college textbook years ago, and it lines things up pretty well...if you can still find it.
Arch form (ABA and it's variations) can be found in a lot of pop music. Another form that's a variation is from a March. Take a standard Sousa march and break down it's form. You'll be surprised how much it matches the form of the Police, or Katy Perry, or whoever...
I would love to hear that piece reworked with form...add an intro that highlights what is coming...play an A section, play a B section, bridge clearly, restate the opening theme...
Music teachers aren't always the most tactful humans. They spend a lot of time alone practicing their craft instead of socializing.
I don't know where he is anymore, but we had a professor named Dr. Marc Satterwhite who was seriously into this type of music. Google him. He's the most approachable and constructive composition guy I've ever met...which is probably why he didn't stick around my college for more than a couple of years.
Good luck!
keep it simple, make a catchy melody and a good harmonic progression. easily understandable A and B part. and then fit in all the skills you got. also, we be playing bass so get it grooving brother, make them teachers dance alright.
but keep it classy you see, jazz is a good resource to find inspiration for an easy to listen to but still technically demanding composition. for a melody you might want to listen to some horn players and try to imitate that on the bass guitar.
a hint from me concerning teachers is never to let criticism get you ona personal or emotional level. i respect people who are straight forward to me and can't take those seriously who sweet talk. harsh feed back is what keeps you on the ground, doesn't allow for illusions of mastery you see.
also his last sentence should make you confident as he believes you can make it.
to be honest i'd really appreciate to have a teacher like this, i could never find one though.
but keep it classy you see, jazz is a good resource to find inspiration for an easy to listen to but still technically demanding composition. for a melody you might want to listen to some horn players and try to imitate that on the bass guitar.
a hint from me concerning teachers is never to let criticism get you ona personal or emotional level. i respect people who are straight forward to me and can't take those seriously who sweet talk. harsh feed back is what keeps you on the ground, doesn't allow for illusions of mastery you see.
also his last sentence should make you confident as he believes you can make it.
to be honest i'd really appreciate to have a teacher like this, i could never find one though.
trust me in the words or the bill cosby if you are trying to please other thats the quickest road to failure............. brother you are awesome keep up the good work
I, on the other hand, was not bothered by any "form" at all in the OP's playing. It had a fine "form" for me and I enjoyed listening to it in its entirety. Also the OP said he put a lot of emotion into it himself when composing and playing it - I have no reason to doubt his report.
Has anyone here ever listened to Trance? That particular musical style is very repetitive and often lacks this "form" that seems to be the woody among academic musicians, yet it seems to "communicate emotion" just fine to most of its listeners.
I strongly encourage the OP to continue doing what he's doing....
LS
Nobody says he can't. If the OP wants to get into a program (which one, I'm still waiting to hear) for which he needs to audition and submit a portfolio, then he needs to first start by meeting the requirements. When you apply for a job, you typically want to convince your potential employer that you have the skill set that they are looking for, and that you are motivated and not crazy. If your CV is disorganized and does not state adequate requisites, the hiring manager is quickly going to put it in the pile of rejects and continue their search for a qualified candidate (who will probably be many, and then they start picking nits to narrow the pool).
As an artist, the portfolio is your résumé. You want to demonstrate that you know what you're doing (good harmony, good form), and hopefully that your music represents yourself. If the OP can show technical knowledge, there is no reason why he couldn't also put this piece in his portfolio as well. I personally wouldn't give anybody a reason to doubt my portfolio, though. When I was in school, I kept my rock music away from my classical music simply for the reason that it would accomplish nothing to bring my extracurricular music to the attention of people who had no interest in that sort of thing. Autonomy is having the freedom to make a decision based on a holistic consideration of the information, not being a stubborn blockhead who can't take criticism in a constructive manner.
I think your teacher gave you all the advice you need, you just didn't agree with it. I listened to it, I think you need to program this piece into a sequencer and see what it sounds like. I think your teacher did you a favor by giving it to you straight.
A lot of colleges want a 'standard form' when it comes to music.
Sure you can play, and the 'ambient' theme you wanted to convey may seem a bit avant-garde to the 'untrained' ear. Some of the harmonics may seem like mistakes to those not 'in the know'.
I would take his comments onboard and just try for a simpler, melodic approach. Something with a bit more emotional ebb and flow. Toe the line, so to speak. Give them the sort of thing they are looking for, and save your experimental stuff for a band setting.
Good luck!!!!
Sure you can play, and the 'ambient' theme you wanted to convey may seem a bit avant-garde to the 'untrained' ear. Some of the harmonics may seem like mistakes to those not 'in the know'.
I would take his comments onboard and just try for a simpler, melodic approach. Something with a bit more emotional ebb and flow. Toe the line, so to speak. Give them the sort of thing they are looking for, and save your experimental stuff for a band setting.
Good luck!!!!
Stuart,
It's awesome that you're getting a lot of good ideas and opinions that you can really use in a constructive way! I'm really glad to see that you're coming away with this excited and looking at new possibilites rather than grumbling and feeling insulted.
One last little bit of advice from me. When all is said and done, your song should cause people to do something. What that something is depends on your goals with any given song you might be working on but here are a few ideas. Feel free to come up with others!
Some things are easier to remember as a poem or lyrics. With that in mind:
Make them laugh,
Make them cry,
Make them dance,
Make them sigh.
It's awesome that you're getting a lot of good ideas and opinions that you can really use in a constructive way! I'm really glad to see that you're coming away with this excited and looking at new possibilites rather than grumbling and feeling insulted.
One last little bit of advice from me. When all is said and done, your song should cause people to do something. What that something is depends on your goals with any given song you might be working on but here are a few ideas. Feel free to come up with others!
Some things are easier to remember as a poem or lyrics. With that in mind:
Make them laugh,
Make them cry,
Make them dance,
Make them sigh.
Oh man! You guys are a different level of awesome!
Never was expecting this type of response!
@Oniman7 Thats what I plan on ☺ and I always strive for open mindedness especially when I comes to music. Thanks I will rewrite it in the near future and post it in this thread! Keep rocking that BTB again! Mines super sentimental because it was played by a talented friend who passed away a few years ago and although its action is now ehh and I get some buzzing every now and then its still by far one of my favorite instruments. Do they make them anymore? I was told they dont once but maybe it was just my model..
@Bainbridge You seriously have given the best constructive criticism (specifically form which was the biggest problem with the piece) that ive ever received musically and I would like to thank you and insist you make a extremely comfortable living doing so. As for how I want to approach music scholastically is still a subject of debate but any and all knowledge of music is what im striving for..if you have suggestions I would be more then open to them.
@eban3
I agree with the statement of some music surpassing the realms of academia but im certainly not at that level. I want to learn all I can on the rules before I can break them how I want to. He doesnt have closed ears, I feel like he knows what im doing but his opinion keeps him from appreciating it.(an opinion probably due to the environment he studied music in) I want to study music and learn what this is but also grow naturally at the same time. This could be challenging but rewarding(to myself at least). He was actually a great mentor and I really enjoyed and learnt more then so then ever before under his teachings.
@callofcthulu
Hahaha I could never satisfy my want for knowledge when it comes to bass playing or music in general so I appreciate the post! My intention is not to become a music douche but to improve and seek musical knowledge that may or may not affect my playing. Its up to me to decide what music to build but it wouldnt hurt to have a bigger tool box provided when writing. Hahaha Dont worry I dont care for kool aid anyways. The placement of my song into the heavy metal genre gave me some ideas of how to play this live with my band (multi genre jam band) specifically a guitar riff with with distortion and ascending minor root arpeggio 6th minor arpeggio 3, ill leave that up to the guitarist though hahaha. But all in all I enjoyed your viewpoint on music and also help me further my stereotype of personality-music genre preference correlation. You seem like a cool dood, and if this gets the appreciation that you described from people I would personally give you tabs and standard notation of the piece. Thanks!
@Crazyeelboy
Yeah! Furthering the conclusion to make it a band piece I would love to lay down some more voices and instruments into the piece. Thanks! I forgot my settings though but I can probably recreate it. I was never denying the authenticity of the piece. I was simply concerned and wanted to know what I could do to achieve the standards that werent met. I appreciate criticism but I would like it to be more constructive at times that is my only critique of his critique. It is definitely a rough draft which I wrote on the soundcloud information. Ill take your advice with me when redoing the piece!
@bainbridges next comment in the thread
Your points reflect my thinking exactly. Back to my extended metaphor id like to be able to use a larger toolkit when building my music. Something I think studying music at a higher level will provide me.
Hahahaha that was a great counter argument. Although I didnt know that, Miles davis a big influence on me (probably most musicians).
He is a great teacher and person, which is why this email stung a little. I think the harshness was motivational so I credit him.
@bethelbass1
I will certainly learn those pieces and your help is beyond appreciated. I will study and play the suites as doing both will obviously help me with both performance and composition. Especially as another comment suggested starting with baroque then moving to classical and then romantic etc. Youre the man!
@Yes those points are kind of silly. But I think most people due to the western society and the music were all forced upon have some idea what it means for music to say something or go somewhere. Although we may not all share the viewpoints we know what western society(and for that reason most music listeners) is looking for. Because we all listened to more or less the same type of music growing up we look for these mostly accepted musical statements and it starts to become what most people are looking for. Whether what appeals to the individual is expressed or not the widely accepted feelings for music are still becoming more approachable and thats what he wants academic musicians want from me.
My approach is to learn, I dont have any intentions of teaching yet. Im probably going to double major or minor in music, because I want a jizob after I get out of university.
@bander68
Hahaha seriously not to be that guy, but im nothing special and you really shouldnt be. Im going to take your advice and start studying in depth(like playing each note one by one as this is the best way to analyze music for me) starting with baroque and moving onwards. Ill certainly look for the book. I will work the form out and repost it with less mistakes and some other changes. Ill take a look for the teacher your recommended, to see where he teaches. I understand hes approachable but some random kid on the internet asking for help is probably going to fly over his head.
@backup
Ill take your advice, but for a new song!
Yeah, I know. It was a little emotional because of experiences beyond teacher/student relationship, but it was for the best. He was a great teacher and he still teaches in Cairo, Egypt if you ever feel like studying from him hahaha
@lslimcuttah
I was pleased with this piece, but I still have a lot to learn and its not about pleasing others as it is learning what I can from people. Thanks man! I certainly will!
@unclejanes later post
Hahaha it is pretty poor form, ill experiment with some and see the difference. If its not what I think is better then I wont change it But thanks for the idea, trance music on bass? Why not?!
@bainbridge again!
I will start working on other pieces and post them in different threads following the requirements that are expected. Again your advice is extremely helpful and im going to PM you as soon as I start another thread so I can get some of your advice on there.(whether you do is entirely up to you though haha)
@henry2513
I agreed with it. I was just hoping that he would be a little more constructive. Your right though I would have preferred he was honest then saying it was glorious and amazing and whatever. Now I can improve and its because of his honesty.
@geddeee
What about the harmonics did you seem like were a mistake? I mean obviously the articulation and duration were kinda whack and the motifs werent consistent but they all were notes that fit in the key, the timings werent really perfect but that wouldnt be noticed by the untrained ear anyways.
Give them the sort of thing they are looking for, and save your experimental stuff for a band setting. Exactly what im doing!
Thanks!
@Okay! Ill try to portray less indescribable emotions. Thanks
You guys really helped me out!
Ill post the final product for the solo version of this piece soon and the band version probably later this year on my bands soundcloud which I will put in my bio at a later date. Ill post other pieces here for criticism in the future because you guys are better at helping me out with criticism then ive ever had before and I really appreciate.
Going to study some form and play some baroque cello suites now!
Never was expecting this type of response!
@Oniman7 Thats what I plan on ☺ and I always strive for open mindedness especially when I comes to music. Thanks I will rewrite it in the near future and post it in this thread! Keep rocking that BTB again! Mines super sentimental because it was played by a talented friend who passed away a few years ago and although its action is now ehh and I get some buzzing every now and then its still by far one of my favorite instruments. Do they make them anymore? I was told they dont once but maybe it was just my model..
@Bainbridge You seriously have given the best constructive criticism (specifically form which was the biggest problem with the piece) that ive ever received musically and I would like to thank you and insist you make a extremely comfortable living doing so. As for how I want to approach music scholastically is still a subject of debate but any and all knowledge of music is what im striving for..if you have suggestions I would be more then open to them.
@eban3
I agree with the statement of some music surpassing the realms of academia but im certainly not at that level. I want to learn all I can on the rules before I can break them how I want to. He doesnt have closed ears, I feel like he knows what im doing but his opinion keeps him from appreciating it.(an opinion probably due to the environment he studied music in) I want to study music and learn what this is but also grow naturally at the same time. This could be challenging but rewarding(to myself at least). He was actually a great mentor and I really enjoyed and learnt more then so then ever before under his teachings.
@callofcthulu
Hahaha I could never satisfy my want for knowledge when it comes to bass playing or music in general so I appreciate the post! My intention is not to become a music douche but to improve and seek musical knowledge that may or may not affect my playing. Its up to me to decide what music to build but it wouldnt hurt to have a bigger tool box provided when writing. Hahaha Dont worry I dont care for kool aid anyways. The placement of my song into the heavy metal genre gave me some ideas of how to play this live with my band (multi genre jam band) specifically a guitar riff with with distortion and ascending minor root arpeggio 6th minor arpeggio 3, ill leave that up to the guitarist though hahaha. But all in all I enjoyed your viewpoint on music and also help me further my stereotype of personality-music genre preference correlation. You seem like a cool dood, and if this gets the appreciation that you described from people I would personally give you tabs and standard notation of the piece. Thanks!
@Crazyeelboy
Yeah! Furthering the conclusion to make it a band piece I would love to lay down some more voices and instruments into the piece. Thanks! I forgot my settings though but I can probably recreate it. I was never denying the authenticity of the piece. I was simply concerned and wanted to know what I could do to achieve the standards that werent met. I appreciate criticism but I would like it to be more constructive at times that is my only critique of his critique. It is definitely a rough draft which I wrote on the soundcloud information. Ill take your advice with me when redoing the piece!
@bainbridges next comment in the thread
Your points reflect my thinking exactly. Back to my extended metaphor id like to be able to use a larger toolkit when building my music. Something I think studying music at a higher level will provide me.
Hahahaha that was a great counter argument. Although I didnt know that, Miles davis a big influence on me (probably most musicians).
He is a great teacher and person, which is why this email stung a little. I think the harshness was motivational so I credit him.
@bethelbass1
I will certainly learn those pieces and your help is beyond appreciated. I will study and play the suites as doing both will obviously help me with both performance and composition. Especially as another comment suggested starting with baroque then moving to classical and then romantic etc. Youre the man!
@Yes those points are kind of silly. But I think most people due to the western society and the music were all forced upon have some idea what it means for music to say something or go somewhere. Although we may not all share the viewpoints we know what western society(and for that reason most music listeners) is looking for. Because we all listened to more or less the same type of music growing up we look for these mostly accepted musical statements and it starts to become what most people are looking for. Whether what appeals to the individual is expressed or not the widely accepted feelings for music are still becoming more approachable and thats what he wants academic musicians want from me.
My approach is to learn, I dont have any intentions of teaching yet. Im probably going to double major or minor in music, because I want a jizob after I get out of university.
@bander68
Hahaha seriously not to be that guy, but im nothing special and you really shouldnt be. Im going to take your advice and start studying in depth(like playing each note one by one as this is the best way to analyze music for me) starting with baroque and moving onwards. Ill certainly look for the book. I will work the form out and repost it with less mistakes and some other changes. Ill take a look for the teacher your recommended, to see where he teaches. I understand hes approachable but some random kid on the internet asking for help is probably going to fly over his head.
@backup
Ill take your advice, but for a new song!
Yeah, I know. It was a little emotional because of experiences beyond teacher/student relationship, but it was for the best. He was a great teacher and he still teaches in Cairo, Egypt if you ever feel like studying from him hahaha
@lslimcuttah
I was pleased with this piece, but I still have a lot to learn and its not about pleasing others as it is learning what I can from people. Thanks man! I certainly will!
@unclejanes later post
Hahaha it is pretty poor form, ill experiment with some and see the difference. If its not what I think is better then I wont change it
But thanks for the idea, trance music on bass? Why not?!@bainbridge again!
I will start working on other pieces and post them in different threads following the requirements that are expected. Again your advice is extremely helpful and im going to PM you as soon as I start another thread so I can get some of your advice on there.(whether you do is entirely up to you though haha)
@henry2513
I agreed with it. I was just hoping that he would be a little more constructive. Your right though I would have preferred he was honest then saying it was glorious and amazing and whatever. Now I can improve and its because of his honesty.
@geddeee
What about the harmonics did you seem like were a mistake? I mean obviously the articulation and duration were kinda whack and the motifs werent consistent but they all were notes that fit in the key, the timings werent really perfect but that wouldnt be noticed by the untrained ear anyways.
Give them the sort of thing they are looking for, and save your experimental stuff for a band setting. Exactly what im doing!
Thanks!
@Okay! Ill try to portray less indescribable emotions. Thanks
You guys really helped me out!
Ill post the final product for the solo version of this piece soon and the band version probably later this year on my bands soundcloud which I will put in my bio at a later date. Ill post other pieces here for criticism in the future because you guys are better at helping me out with criticism then ive ever had before and I really appreciate.
Going to study some form and play some baroque cello suites now!
Im a Music student studying IB HL music and hoping to either major or minor when i go to college but recently i think that dream isn't going to work out.
Recently i sent a teacher from last year (who i was close with and jammed with in jazz band and orchestra) this solo performance piece that was slightly improvised.
https://soundcloud.com/stuarthoskins
The response i got wasn't helpful at all and he ceased to email me back when i asked for constructive criticism.
"Hello Stuart,
I was able to read your email and after several technical glitches I had to listen to your composition on xxxxx's laptop.
Stuart, if you are serious about wanting to pursue music at University/College level you are going to have to do much better.
Music needs to say something and needs to go somewhere. Both xxxxxx and myself were left wondering what your piece was trying to convey. A mood? A feeling? A statement? If you submitted that composition for IB or a University entrance paper you would fail. You may have enjoyed experimenting and composing it but I am sorry to say that it is lacking discernible quality relating to the majority of musical elements that we might discuss in a music class.
I suspect that your listening skills are still pretty adept but you will certainly need to work much more on the areas of composition and performance in order to be accepted to study music at University.
Sorry to be brutal Stuart but I do believe you may still make it if you re-calibrate your thinking."
Hopefully you guys can offer advice on what i need to work on. Maybe give me your thoughts on the piece and what i should work on to improve my writing and performance..
Anything would be helpful
Dude, I don't know what to tell you. That was pretty awesome, and I don't think you have anything to work on. But then, I've only heard one piece by you. If anything, this "teacher" is probably jealous of what you did.
Yepper. I'm just saying don't listen to anyone who says your music is bad. Shut your ears off immediately when you hear the word "bad" and never listen to them again.
If instead they're actually leaning towards being honest and simply criticize it, demand that they _always_ define their terms. Eg. if they say it "lacks form", immediately demand that they define what they're talking about (what is the correct form it must have and why, etc). If they say "music has to say something", they _must define_ what that "something" is that it must say and _why_ it must say it. Don't settle for a dishonest response - if they simply don't like it, require that they simply say "I don't like it".
This is the only way you'll ever shake out the dishonest idiots (like that original guy) from the people who really do know art from craft and want to teach you the right thing.
Finally, if they demand that you already know what they want to teach you before they'll commit to you as a student, walk away immediately. At the end, after you've spent all that money, you want to come away with something you _didn't_ have before you started. This is absolutely critical - demand what you want that you don't have now and make sure that that's what they're committed to deliver to you.
_you're_ the "customer" who's paying for the service, _they_ are the teachers. They have no rights beyond demanding only a commitment to what they want to teach you - apart from that they have only _responsibilities_ to you. In the end, _you're the boss_ because you're the one paying the 10's of thousands of bucks
.Good luck and have fun whichever way you go.
LS
My BTB I got used at Guitar Center for $200. It's a BTB445QM made in 2003 is my best guess, as it showed up at Guitar Center with the paint stripped and re-finished in a natural wood stain (a color not available to Korean Made BTB such as the serial number revealed mine to be).
Also, I got some feedback I wanted to share with you. The guy who responded to my Facebook post is known as the rhythm master of Jacksonville (the big city next to my city). He's just freaky good and he teaches rhythm "to the grid". This is what he had to say about mine:
Dakota. Having met you in person, I am feeling a little trepidation about being brutally honest here. You seem like a really nice dude and you seem to want to improve your playing. So here it goes: You are not even close to nailing this song. Your meter is soft, it moves around within the metric confines of this tune. This is a downbeat oriented piece. And you're missing downbeats. Worse are the pick up notes. They rarely fall square. You CAN improve this if you work at it. But you need to ******* work. Every day.
Comment 2:
OK, I am being lambasted for lambasting you. But I think you can handle my criticisms. I can softball my students, and they never seem to get the message. When I lay it on the line with them, and hold their feet to the fire, they either walk or they do the work that needs to be done. Again, you are a nice guy, and I am not here to hurt your feelings. But you wanna be good, you gotta put the time in.
Here is the good part: You have an innate ability to play music. Some people DO NOT embody this. So you are ahead of the game. Practice your *** off, and capitalize on your advantages -- namely that you understand technique and, more importantly, music itself.
Honestly, with 90% of people (even musicians) I think they would have great feedback. Everybody with the exception of him and a pianist he works with have said it was awesome. But it wasn't those 90% I needed the advice from. It was those 10% that are at his level. I wanted to share this to contrast the type of feedback I got versus what you got. They were both harsh criticisms but handled in much different ways. Here is the video I posted asking for feedback
Also, I got some feedback I wanted to share with you. The guy who responded to my Facebook post is known as the rhythm master of Jacksonville (the big city next to my city). He's just freaky good and he teaches rhythm "to the grid". This is what he had to say about mine:
Dakota. Having met you in person, I am feeling a little trepidation about being brutally honest here. You seem like a really nice dude and you seem to want to improve your playing. So here it goes: You are not even close to nailing this song. Your meter is soft, it moves around within the metric confines of this tune. This is a downbeat oriented piece. And you're missing downbeats. Worse are the pick up notes. They rarely fall square. You CAN improve this if you work at it. But you need to ******* work. Every day.
Comment 2:
OK, I am being lambasted for lambasting you. But I think you can handle my criticisms. I can softball my students, and they never seem to get the message. When I lay it on the line with them, and hold their feet to the fire, they either walk or they do the work that needs to be done. Again, you are a nice guy, and I am not here to hurt your feelings. But you wanna be good, you gotta put the time in.
Here is the good part: You have an innate ability to play music. Some people DO NOT embody this. So you are ahead of the game. Practice your *** off, and capitalize on your advantages -- namely that you understand technique and, more importantly, music itself.
Honestly, with 90% of people (even musicians) I think they would have great feedback. Everybody with the exception of him and a pianist he works with have said it was awesome. But it wasn't those 90% I needed the advice from. It was those 10% that are at his level. I wanted to share this to contrast the type of feedback I got versus what you got. They were both harsh criticisms but handled in much different ways. Here is the video I posted asking for feedback
