I need help designing a custom from Carl Thompson and Custom Instrument owners!

[Quentin Hunt]

I'm a year into the CT waiting list and in the beginning I bombarded the poor man with the thought of a Fancy lined fretless 6-string with a whale tail, a wooden bridge & nut, and exotic woods.
I'm young, so hopefully he dismissed my babbling as excitement; he accepted my commission anyway, so that's a good thing.

Well... I feel like I was wrong with my selection as this is my first custom instrument and I've been doing research extensively for the last 3-4 months, so I would like to reflect my thoughts on the people that have a clue about what they are doing.

1) Edit: If I end up grabbing a fretted bass, I'll go for a hipshot bridge and wooden nut. If I end up grabbing the fretless bass, probably a floating bridge. Whatever happens, not too much of my say.

2) Edit: I own a fretless now, so I know that my playstyle and tempo doesn't vary much from the fretted variant.

3) Edit: I will keep an open mind towards pickups, but I am taking a fancy at EMG Soapbars, bartolinis, or Nordstrands.

4) What should I expect the general costs of refretting (fretted) and retopping (fretless) a bass?

5) Edit: I will be sticking to roundwounds. I was thinking of flatwounds to preserve a possibly fretless fretboard, but that would be a bad idea.

If anyone would give me additional information and research material, I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you everyone.

Edit: I know for sure I'm getting a 6-string bass, I'm just stuck between whether I would want my Carl Thompson to be fretted or not.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

Bump

 

[Ballin'bass]

Hi, to answer a few of the questions you have:

1. Bridges/nuts - I would opt for a metal bridge as opposed to a wooden, custom one. A standard metal bridge like a hipshot will be more durable and more easily adjustable than a wooden one. Even though wood bridges look cooler, metal ones are more practical. My CT has a hipshot type A and it's perfect. The nut can be made out of whatever, but if you want a durable one, get it made from metal or graphite. Bone or plastic or wood should be fine though. And nuts are very easy to replace so keep that in mind.

2. Fretless/fretted/# of strings - I understand that you like the idea of an extended range fretless, but I would recommend that you get your CT bass made in the format you're already most comfortable with. You are going to be spending many thousands of dollars on this bass, so if you don't normally play a 6 string fretless, you shouldn't take the gamble on that being the kind of bass you want to be plugging all that money into. If you are most comfortable and "at home" on a standard 4-banger with frets, for instance, then that should be the kind of bass you get, rather than taking a gamble on getting a fretless 6er made, based on the hope that you'll "grow into it". If you want to experiment around with fretless extended basses, get something cheaper to start out with so you don't accidentally over invest in it, cause you never know if it'll be a good fit for you in the long run.

Also, imo fretless bass is cool but it's much less practical for various situations/genres and they are harder to play. Unless you are aiming to primarily be a fretless player, you should go fretted for your build, imo. It will fit into way more kinds of music, especially the styles you like to play.

3. Pickups - I personally love the Kent Armstrong claymores that are in my CT. They sound huge and clear. But I don't think Carl would be against using any pickups you want. You gotta talk to him about that though.

4. Refret/re-planing - a standard refret should run you in the ball park of 150 bucks. A refinish on a fretless fb is usually more expensive and harder to do, if I'm not mistaken.

5. Strings - your options for 6 string fretless strings are limited for sure. It's really your call there, but that's another reason I think you should maybe go with a fretted bass instead.

Whatever you decide to do is your choice of course. I'm just offering my opinion of what is the wisest way to go.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

Hi, to answer a few of the questions you have:

1. Bridges/nuts - I would opt for a metal bridge as opposed to a wooden, custom one. A standard metal bridge like a hipshot will be more durable and more easily adjustable than a wooden one. Even though wood bridges look cooler, metal ones are more practical. My CT has a hipshot type A and it's perfect. The nut can be made out of whatever, but if you want a durable one, get it made from metal or graphite. Bone or plastic or wood should be fine though. And nuts are very easy to replace so keep that in mind.

2. Fretless/fretted/# of strings - I understand that you like the idea of an extended range fretless, but I would recommend that you get your CT bass made in the format you're already most comfortable with. You are going to be spending many thousands of dollars on this bass, so if you don't normally play a 6 string fretless, you shouldn't take the gamble on that being the kind of bass you want to be plugging all that money into. If you are most comfortable and "at home" on a standard 4-banger with frets, for instance, then that should be the kind of bass you get, rather than taking a gamble on getting a fretless 6er made, based on the hope that you'll "grow into it". If you want to experiment around with fretless extended basses, get something cheaper to start out with so you don't accidentally over invest in it, cause you never know if it'll be a good fit for you in the long run.

Also, imo fretless bass is cool but it's much less practical for various situations/genres and they are harder to play. Unless you are aiming to primarily be a fretless player, you should go fretted for your build, imo. It will fit into way more kinds of music, especially the styles you like to play.

3. Pickups - I personally love the Kent Armstrong claymores that are in my CT. They sound huge and clear. But I don't think Carl would be against using any pickups you want. You gotta talk to him about that though.

4. Refret/re-planing - a standard refret should run you in the ball park of 150 bucks. A refinish on a fretless fb is usually more expensive and harder to do, if I'm not mistaken.

5. Strings - your options for 6 string fretless strings are limited for sure. It's really your call there, but that's another reason I think you should maybe go with a fretted bass instead.

Whatever you decide to do is your choice of course. I'm just offering my opinion of what is the wisest way to go.

Awesome! I bought myself an acoustic fretless 6-string so I could play around, but I am comfortable with 4s and 6s. I'm just not sure if with my "type" of playing if a fretless would sound muddy. During jams and what-not, I know that I am typically playing faster series of notes (Like Red Hot Chili Peppers- Parallel Universe) and I don't want the sound to be any less than it would be as a fretted.

 

[Ballin'bass]

Awesome! I bought myself an acoustic fretless 6-string so I could play around, but I am comfortable with 4s and 6s. I'm just not sure if with my "type" of playing if a fretless would sound muddy. During jams and what-not, I know that I am typically playing faster series of notes (Like Red Hot Chili Peppers- Parallel Universe) and I don't want the sound to be any less than it would be as a fretted.

OK well without actually hearing you, I can only imagine what your playing sounds like. But if you generally like to be able to play fast notes or "rapid fire" type stuff a lot, or if you like to dig in hard for aggressive music, then a fretless isn't really for you. It will sound more muddy than a fretted. Generally, the notes on a fretless bass require some amount of time to "bloom" or in other words they need time to fully develop their "mwah" sound after being plucked, otherwise it does end up making the notes bleed together. This can be sort of remedied by playing down by the bridge where the strings are more taut, but then you are very limited to the sound that produces. Also if you play too hard/fast on a fretless, you will get a lot of "string spank" on the fingerboard unless you ride your action really high. That tacky sound of the strings clapping on the board doesn't sound good in rock music and it gets really old, really quick. Fretless playing/technique is it's own thing, quite different and more refined than playing with frets. I think of playing with a fretted as being like drawing/sketching with a standard pencil vs playing fretless being like using a fine calligraphy pen. It requires more care and finesse and accuracy. Delicacy. You get a lot more out of the notes on a fretless by playing gently/softly. Again, not very conducive to rock/metal.

If you like to play heavy and fast stuff like rock, metal, punk, rhcp, etc. I recommend you get a fretted. It will also be well suited for any other genres you want to play, whereas the sound of a fretless is more limited to certain styles, imo. E.g. would you bring your 6 string fretless acoustic to play in your metal band, for example? Probably not. Something to think about.

Hope my humble opinions are of some help to you.

 

[mdogs]

I know I will take some heat for this comment, but I just can't imagine buying a CT and putting flats on it. I also can't imagine being this far into a CT build and not really having much idea what you want?!?

 

[Ballin'bass]

I know I will take some heat for this comment, but I just can't imagine buying a CT and putting flats on it. I also can't imagine being this far into a CT build and not really having much idea what you want?!?

He's actually just a year in on the waiting list, Carl has probably not even started the build process yet. It's gonna be a while yet, probably another 4 years until it's competed. So he has time. People have been known to change up their orders in the middle of the wait period, including Les. But the sooner the better.

But I must also agree with this post. Putting flats on a CT is a bit of a silly idea and I wouldn't personally do it. Rounds are the only thing that will actually capture the essence of the 36" scale and give you that incredible sustain. A Carl Thompson is meant to have a very "alive" sound. It should sound deep, of course, but also clear, bright and twangy, imo. Seems to be the overall goal of his instruments and you can't really get that with flats. That's just my personal opinion.

 

[mdogs]

He's actually just a year in on the waiting list, Carl has probably not even started the build process yet. It's gonna be a while yet, probably another 4 years until it's competed. So he has time. People have been known to change up their orders in the middle of the wait period, including Les. But the sooner the better.

But I must also agree with this post. Putting flats in a CT is a bit of a silly idea and I wouldn't personally do it. Rounds are the only thing that will actually capture the essence of the 36" scale and give you that incredible sustain. A Carl Thompson is meant to have a very "alive" sounds. It should sound deep, of course, but also clear, bright and twangy, imo. Seems to be the overall goal of his instruments and you can't really get that with flats. That's just my personal opinion.

Good point on the build, I guess I should have stated my point better, I would not even commit to getting on the list until I knew EXACTLY what I wanted at least in regards to # of strings, fretted/fretless, the major stuff.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

I had an idea for my build, but like Ballin'Bass stated I still have another few years to go. This probably won't be the only time I replan the build either before it's my turn to tell the big man what I want.

The number of strings isn't my problem, haha, that was a wild card question asking if there are other brands of flatwounds besides those two brands. I play 4-strings and 6-strings fine. If flatwounds aren't a good idea, I'll stay away from them. I've only played up to 36" scales so the only learning stretch I will have with playing one of these instruments is if I go with a 38" scale.

 

[MobileHolmes]

1) I play a lot of different genres of music, but I particularly play metal and rock. I catch myself riding open strings frequently, I would have loved a wooden floating bridge and cool looking wood nut, but I feel that I would damage the wood quickly. Should I choose a graphite nut and metal (probably hipshot) bridge instead?

2) I love the sound of a fretless, but there are a lot of fretless bass brands grow muddy with "fast playing". If I play faster than 6 notes per second is there a chance that my Carl Thompson will sound muddy? I plan on playing on flatwounds, and I know that there will be fretboard wear, so if this ends up being a problem I may commission for a fretted bass instead.

3) I don't have a great knowledge of pickups, but are there any brands that he will not use in particular?

4) What should I expect the general costs of refretting (fretted) and retopping (fretless) a bass?

5) If I do choose a 6-string fretless bass, are there any brands besides Thomastik and Labella that I could look toward for flatwounds?

If anyone would give me additional information and research material, I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you everyone.

I don't own a CT, but can address some of your questions

1. I dont' know about durability, but I think a metal bridge and graphite nut are more practical in general.

2. You can use fretless in any genre (In college, there was a great funk cover band I used to watch, and the bass player mostly played a fretless), but they are very different in sound and technique from a fretted. A fretted is going to have a more percussive attack (in general), and is going to be easier to play fast runs on cleanly. That is not to say you can't play fast clean runs on a fretless (there are all kinds of symphonic string players who can attest to that) but it is going to be different. I think you ought to buy some cheap fretless out of the classifieds and see how you like it before you plunk down on a custom fretless. you should be able to resell it for roughly what you bought it for later. As for wear, I think people get a little too worried about this. I've had two fretlesses, both with ebony boards, and both played with nickel round wounds. Neither have shown much fingerboard wear. Granted, I don't play a ton of fretless, but my current fretless was bought used, came with rounds on it, has heavy playing wear elsewhere, and no meaningful wear on the fingerboard. Also, if you keep an eye on it, and do it before it is too far gone, most fretless board maintenance is a little bit of sanding.

3. Beats me

4. It depends on lots of things. I would guess that some routine fingerboard maintenance of sanding or a little planing would cost about what a fret dressing/leveling would. Refrets are pretty expensive (as would be a more serious fingerboard reworking), but that isn't something that happens with any regularity. I think it is pretty rare to replace a fingerboard on a fretless. Usually any wear can be addressed by sanding/planing, and possibly filling in deep grooves before the sanding.I've never had a bass refretted, and at this point, given the amount I play divided by the number of basses I play, I don't anticipate ever having to refret a bass. Some people need them more often (touring musician who plays hard every day and has a #1 that gets most of the attention).

5. I use labella flats on my P bass and think they are great, but they would be pretty awful strings for many metal genres, especially on a fretless. They are very dark and thuddy. I haven't played TIs, but the impression I get is that they are pretty upright like, so probably not the droids you're looking for. Try basstringsonline.com . They have pretty much the best string selection I've ever seen. In particular, don't get locked into needing 6 string sets. They sell singles for an awful lot of string types, and you may be better off buying a 4 string set and two singles (I do that because, while I can get a 6 set from my preferred brand, it isn't the guages I like). I also don't think you should use flats period...

shorter version- It sounds like you have a bit of confusion about what you want (which is fine) and I think before committing to a custom bass, you need to settle the question of whether a fretless is right for you or not. Beyond that, I wouldn't pick strings based on wear to the instrumet (except maybe I wouldn't put Rotosound 66s on a fretless, those are brutal). I think you should pick up a cheap fretless to dink around on before you have to finalize your order with CT.

Edit

A quick search on the classifieds found 6 fretless basses in the first 4 pages, maybe more if I read more carfeully. None were super cheap, but some were some good values (the blue warmoth is a looker), and there was a fender or two that would probably hold it's value well if you were going to flip. I'm not affiliated with any of these mind you

 

[Quentin Hunt]

I don't own a CT, but can address some of your questions

1. I dont' know about durability, but I think a metal bridge and graphite nut are more practical in general.

2. You can use fretless in any genre (In college, there was a great funk cover band I used to watch, and the bass player mostly played a fretless), but they are very different in sound and technique from a fretted. A fretted is going to have a more percussive attack (in general), and is going to be easier to play fast runs on cleanly. That is not to say you can't play fast clean runs on a fretless (there are all kinds of symphonic string players who can attest to that) but it is going to be different. I think you ought to buy some cheap fretless out of the classifieds and see how you like it before you plunk down on a custom fretless. you should be able to resell it for roughly what you bought it for later. As for wear, I think people get a little too worried about this. I've had two fretlesses, both with ebony boards, and both played with nickel round wounds. Neither have shown much fingerboard wear. Granted, I don't play a ton of fretless, but my current fretless was bought used, came with rounds on it, has heavy playing wear elsewhere, and no meaningful wear on the fingerboard. Also, if you keep an eye on it, and do it before it is too far gone, most fretless board maintenance is a little bit of sanding.

3. Beats me

4. It depends on lots of things. I would guess that some routine fingerboard maintenance of sanding or a little planing would cost about what a fret dressing/leveling would. Refrets are pretty expensive (as would be a more serious fingerboard reworking), but that isn't something that happens with any regularity. I think it is pretty rare to replace a fingerboard on a fretless. Usually any wear can be addressed by sanding/planing, and possibly filling in deep grooves before the sanding.I've never had a bass refretted, and at this point, given the amount I play divided by the number of basses I play, I don't anticipate ever having to refret a bass. Some people need them more often (touring musician who plays hard every day and has a #1 that gets most of the attention).

5. I use labella flats on my P bass and think they are great, but they would be pretty awful strings for many metal genres, especially on a fretless. They are very dark and thuddy. I haven't played TIs, but the impression I get is that they are pretty upright like, so probably not the droids you're looking for. Try basstringsonline.com . They have pretty much the best string selection I've ever seen. In particular, don't get locked into needing 6 string sets. They sell singles for an awful lot of string types, and you may be better off buying a 4 string set and two singles (I do that because, while I can get a 6 set from my preferred brand, it isn't the guages I like). I also don't think you should use flats period...

shorter version- It sounds like you have a bit of confusion about what you want (which is fine) and I think before committing to a custom bass, you need to settle the question of whether a fretless is right for you or not. Beyond that, I wouldn't pick strings based on wear to the instrumet (except maybe I wouldn't put Rotosound 66s on a fretless, those are brutal). I think you should pick up a cheap fretless to dink around on before you have to finalize your order with CT.

I appreciate it! I've played fretless and I have loved it, but I haven't messed with them enough so I bought one online so I could see what I'll prefer between a fretted and fretless bass. I feel when I was thinking of flats that I was thinking of the longevity of the fretboard instead of the sound I would get, which is my bad.

 

[MobileHolmes]

I appreciate it! I've played fretless and I have loved it, but I haven't messed with them enough so I bought one online so I could see what I'll prefer between a fretted and fretless bass. I feel when I was thinking of flats that I was thinking of the longevity of the fretboard instead of the sound I would get, which is my bad.

Cool. Sorry for assuming you didn't have some fretless experience. I have one, and will keep it, but it isnt' my cup of tea most days.

As for the wear, that isn't a dumb idea at all to consider it. I tend to think of a bass as a tool though, and wear and tear is just something you have to manage. Also, you might pose your string questions in the string forum. Some of those guys have tried about everything. At this point, I know what I like, and haven't sampled all that much else, but there are ground wounds, pressure rounds, etc that seem to split the difference between flats and rounds when it comes to attributes.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

Cool. Sorry for assuming you didn't have some fretless experience. I have one, and will keep it, but it isnt' my cup of tea most days.

As for the wear, that isn't a dumb idea at all to consider it. I tend to think of a bass as a tool though, and wear and tear is just something you have to manage. Also, you might pose your string questions in the string forum. Some of those guys have tried about everything. At this point, I know what I like, and haven't sampled all that much else, but there are ground wounds, pressure rounds, etc that seem to split the difference between flats and rounds when it comes to attributes.

I make myself sound like a newb and that isn't much of a stretch as far as fretless basses go because I haven't owned own up until now, so I don't take any offense to your assumption. You're right in saying that it's a tool, and in the long run I may end up preferring to get a fretless fender or something depending on how much I actually end up using this acoustic that's coming in the mail. I play punk, funk, rock, metal, alternative, progressive, and play a lot of different genres with my music, and although I love the sound of a good fretless I know the sound's not for everyone.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

If you don't already play a buttload of fretless 6 string bass, as in it is your main player at all times, I would never recommend getting a custom made fretless 6 string, especially if the bass will be north of $5000. That is just asking for a major loss on the re-sale in my opinion.

 

[MobileHolmes]

If you don't already play a buttload of fretless 6 string bass, as in it is your main player at all times, I would never recommend getting a custom made fretless 6 string, especially if the bass will be north of $5000. That is just asking for a major loss on the re-sale in my opinion.

If I'm not mistaken, that was sort of the Les story. Supposedly, he'd never really played a 6 or a fretless, ordered the Rainbow Bass from Carl Thompson, and pretty much took it straight in to record Sailing the Seas of Cheese. But he is a braver fella than I am.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

If you don't already play a buttload of fretless 6 string bass, as in it is your main player at all times, I would never recommend getting a custom made fretless 6 string, especially if the bass will be north of $5000. That is just asking for a major loss on the re-sale in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I play primarily on fretted 4s and 6s, and I've played around with fretless, I just haven't owned a fretless until i recently ordered a harmonia 6-string acoustic fretless, so I guess I'll find out if it's right for me or not.

 

[Ballin'bass]

You got time. You'll figure it out soon enough. I for one am happy my CT is a 4 string fretted. It's generally applicable to most styles of music.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I had an idea for my build, but like Ballin'Bass stated I still have another few years to go. This probably won't be the only time I replan the build either before it's my turn to tell the big man what I want.

Nothing wrong with planning -- and re-planning...and then re-re-planning -- your build while you wait. That's half of the fun with a custom instrument!

But as someone who just went through a long lead time custom item (in this case, a made-to-measure handbuilt bicycle), I want to share a perspective that allowed me to get through the long wait without driving myself crazy. In my case the projected wait time at the time I put down a deposit was 6 years. And due to a variety of circumstances on the part of the builder, that turned into a little over 7 years. And then it turned out that after this custom frame & fork were hand built, they got sent to a custom painter who himself had an 8 month lead time! And then another few weeks after it came back from paint for the builder to procure the components and install them so that I wind up with a complete bicycle. All told, a little over 8 years.

And here's what I learned in all that time: After you've placed your order, but before your name comes up in the builder's queue...that's the time to forget about it. Just go do other things, play your other basses, get your mind wrapped around anything besides the fact that it will be several years before the decisions you make about your bass will be anything other than pipedreams.

If you spend this time obsessing over details of your bass-to-be, you will no doubt start to second-guess your earlier decisions, and then you'll doubt those second guesses, and you'll plan and re-plan the bass 100 times over until you don't know what it is you want. Or wanted. Meanwhile, your other basses will feel unloved.

Just get a really basic, big-picture, 10,000' view of what you wanted from Carl, and then just forget about that until Carl calls or emails you one day ~4 years from now. And then ask yourself (or TB) the questions you're asking now. The end result may still wind up being the exact bass you hoped for in 2015 (or whenever you paid your deposit), the difference is you'll have maintained your sanity during the intervening years.

 

[Quentin Hunt]

Nothing wrong with planning -- and re-planning...and then re-re-planning -- your build while you wait. That's half of the fun with a custom instrument!

But as someone who just went through a long lead time custom item (in this case, a made-to-measure handbuilt bicycle), I want to share a perspective that allowed me to get through the long wait without driving myself crazy. In my case the projected wait time at the time I put down a deposit was 6 years. And due to a variety of circumstances on the part of the builder, that turned into a little over 7 years. And then it turned out that after this custom frame & fork were hand built, they got sent to a custom painter who himself had an 8 month lead time! And then another few weeks after it came back from paint for the builder to procure the components and install them so that I wind up with a complete bicycle. All told, a little over 8 years.

And here's what I learned in all that time: After you've placed your order, but before your name comes up in the builder's queue...that's the time to forget about it. Just go do other things, play your other basses, get your mind wrapped around anything besides the fact that it will be several years before the decisions you make about your bass will be anything other than pipedreams.

If you spend this time obsessing over details of your bass-to-be, you will no doubt start to second-guess your earlier decisions, and then you'll doubt those second guesses, and you'll plan and re-plan the bass 100 times over until you don't know what it is you want. Or wanted. Meanwhile, your other basses will feel unloved.

Just get a really basic, big-picture, 10,000' view of what you wanted from Carl, and then just forget about that until Carl calls or emails you one day ~4 years from now. And then ask yourself (or TB) the questions you're asking now. The end result may still wind up being the exact bass you hoped for in 2015 (or whenever you paid your deposit), the difference is you'll have maintained your sanity during the intervening years.

That is great advice that I will have to start following immediately, because I've been patient but this research of mine has probably been doing more harm than good to a certain degree!

 

[Jeff Scott]

That is great advice that I will have to start following immediately, because I've been patient but this research of mine has probably been doing more harm than good to a certain degree!

I've been there, and no doubt, will be again as we have been doing some gut renos at the house, starting with the kitchen (tons of research on just about anything you can think of - except the faucet, I already knew I wanted a wall mount Chicago faucet.).