Double Bass I think I might be in trouble...suggestions ASAP!

[bopeuph]

So, I was called to do Phantom of the Opera next month with the official US tour. Was told "no C extension."

I think the contractor screwed that request up; because now that I'm shedding the book, there's a moderate amount of low C stuff throughout some of the slow pieces.

I do a lot of musical theatre gigs, and this contractor hires me for a lot of commercial stuff, and has pretty much lectured me that I better not be accepting a gig over my head on this, because the last time I did an official Broadway tour for him, about a decade ago and I bombed it, so he was reluctant in hiring me. Took him a year to start using me again, and it was only for 2nd bass stuff in orchestras for a while, and as soon as he noticed my commercial chops, he's been hiring me a lot on that.

I'm kind of afraid to get there, and the conductor notice I don't have a low C extension, and the contractor yells at me for it, even though his words were "no C extension."

I'm also afraid to back out of the job, too, because I really need the bread, and have cleared my calendar for those three weeks already. The gig is in February. And I'll probably be yelled at for backing out, as well.

I am thinking about getting the Hipshot detuner so I can hit the low C's. Is this my best option? I can't afford a C string extension on my Kay, nor do I think it's worth such a mod. I'm thinking of calling @Mark Gollihur ASAP and talking to him about it.

This contractor is a fair guy, but can get pretty pissed off if the situation goes south.

 

[Michael Eisenman]

Get clarification on whether you have to play the low Cs. Maybe the request was for "low C extension", and the contractor heard "no C extension". Get it in writing.

 

[Don Kasper]

Maybe the request was for "low C extension", and the contractor heard "no C extension". Get it in writing.

+1.
Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[bopeuph]

I think I'll call him and tell him I meant to bring a certain bass, and if I indeed need the extension, I'll tell him I'll bring my "other bass," then run and get one of these Hipshots, so he doesn't get uncomfortable with me learning a new piece of equipment on the gig. He's easily nervous about things like that, and keeps telling me how important this job is because it's an official tour.

 

[bopeuph]

Thanks for the help, guys.

After thinking about it, it seems that it's best to not talk to that contractor. Yes, he's one of those guys. I was thinking yesterday to just show up with a standard bass, but the more I shed the music, and all the handwritten notes saying to engage the C extension, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to have one. If I call the contractor and tell him, he might appreciate my honesty, but I lose out on a few grand, because I'm positive he'll replace me.

That Hipshot looks very promising, and I have a few weeks to work out the kinks if I get it now. Seems like that's the path of least resistance.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Can you play with an E-string detuned to C? The G is at the the neck heel then.

An E-string downtuned to C doesn't sound good, it's too weak. Try it by tuning down a major third.

But first ask it it might have been a misunderstanding and he might want and need a bass with a C-extension. The only other solution would be either a 5-string or a 4-string with a low B and a missing G (which might get problematic in higher parts and you need to get used to this tuning for a while). Tell him this in a nice way. It probably was a misunderstanding.

The Hipshot is only useable for tuning down by a major second, not more.

 

[Lee Moses]

For that kind of jing, I'd rent/borrow a bass with a C-extension.

 

[bopeuph]

It's a three week job; renting would get too expensive, and I wouldn't know anyone willing to loan out a bass that's nice enough to have a C extension.

As for sounding "weak," that's no big deal to me, as I will be mic'ed and I can count the number of times I'll need it, all on one hand--all goose eggs. Also, the Hipshot has shown in reviews to get down past B, if not B-flat.

I just tried tuning E down to C on my bass, and while there's much less tension, it actually rumbled the floor a bit...and this was at the last five notes of the show, all at piano.

 

[SVT4001]

Nick,

What about purchasing or borrowing a low C string from a 5ths tuning set?

Joe

 

[Nagrom]

Rent. Job clearly calls for a low C, that spec got garbled. It will be blatantly obvious the moment you arrive without one. That's how I see it.

 

[fretter]

I guess in the professional world, just playing the C an octave higher wouldn't fly?!

 

[Tom Gale]

Get a low C, retune the A to a G, ( just think of the upper G down an octave - it's easy) and leave the D and upper G alone. Practice 5 minutes on the low C and you are ready to go!!
Tom Gale

 

[bopeuph]

What about purchasing or borrowing a low C string from a 5ths tuning set

I intend to use open E most of the show. There's only a half dozen phrases that go lower.

Rent. Job clearly calls for a low C, that spec got garbled. It will be blatantly obvious the moment you arrive without one. That's how I see it.

Renting would be too expensive for the few weeks, and that's even if one is available. Further, I'd have to spend time getting used to a new instrument with an extension...and I've never played an extension before. If they do notice (which I think is unlikely unless the conductor is a bassist), I can at least point to the Hipshot to calm them down.

I guess in the professional world, just playing the C an octave higher wouldn't fly?!

Usually would, but I'm guessing if they did make that request, they might not be happy with that option.

Get a low C, retune the A to a G, ( just think of the upper G down an octave - it's easy) and leave the D and upper G alone. Practice 5 minutes on the low C and you are ready to go!!
Tom Gale

I thought about this...and with the option of a Hipshot for the A to G, but having a C string means I can't play open E. I'm going to just keep standard tuning most of the show, and hit the switch for just a few bars.

 

[lcpierce]

I thought about this...and with the option of a Hipshot for the A to G, but having a C string means I can't play open E. I'm going to just keep standard tuning most of the show, and hit the switch for just a few bars.

Wait, are you saying you have a Hipshot on an upright? I thought those only existed for electric basses.

I think you're right by saying you shouldn't talk to the contractor. I mostly play orchestral/chamber music and we get music written below the regular open E all the time, but we just play those notes up an octave. If the conductor or contractor addresses it, then you can bring it up, but it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Worst case scenario, you could tune down like others have said - I do that a lot, too.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I'd get the hipshot and install and use it as a stopgap measure for this show until you can get an extension on your bass.

Just show up and play the part (with the low notes) and don't offer any extra information or explanations to the conductor unless asked.

Years ago, I was bounced from "Showboat" when it came to town after I went up to the conductor on a rehearsal break and told him that I didn't have an extension, but was covering the part by detuning. I don't know that he would have even noticed if I hadn't opened my mouth. Don't give them a reason to fire you.

If you're going to be doing a lot of shows in the future though, I'd recommend you eventually get one put on your bass.

(on edit: I see you're playing a Kay. As others have mentioned, putting an extension on a plywood bass may be putting the cart before the horse. May be worth it if you see yourself playing the Kay for a good while, and you can have an extension installed and easily removed without a lot of futzing and alteration.)

 

[bopeuph]

Wait, are you saying you have a Hipshot on an upright? I thought those only existed for electric basses.

Invalid Link Removed

The funny thing is I didn't know this existed until yesterday morning. I woke up thinking about it and googled "Hipshot double bass" on a whim. Sure enough, it came up. I ended up going with an Amazon purchase because they ship on Sundays.

I learned the hard way with this particular contractor that you only tell him what he wants to hear, and take care of any issues without him knowing about it. I forgot my music for an orchestra job in Miami, and another bassist told me I should tell him. He was unreasonably angry, especially since there were six bassists and I would have had the music back by the end of the job.

I feel like a Kay isn't worth enough for the real extension, though.

 

[lcpierce]

I learned the hard way with this particular contractor that you only tell him what he wants to hear, and take care of any issues without him knowing about it.

That's pretty much how I view every gig I play. I tend to try and just stay under the radar. My idea is that if they don't say anything to me about whatever it is I'm doing wrong, I'm probably okay

I'm really intrigued by that hipshot. Would you mind doing a demo video when you get it? There's one on the link you posted, but I'd be interested to hear how it sounds when playing more than just the open string.

 

[bopeuph]

I'm really intrigued by that hipshot. Would you mind doing a demo video when you get it? There's one on the link you posted, but I'd be interested to hear how it sounds when playing more than just the open string.

I'll try to after this show. Just remind me!

I saw another video with a guy walking with it set to low D. He also does the demo with different settings.

 

[bejoyous]

It might be best to get a clearer understanding of what he means.

 

[MikeCanada]

I am going to go not so far out on a limb here, and suggest that "low C extension" got lost in translation and ended up as "No C extension" somewhere between you, and whoever this started with. While I have occasionally encountered a few music directors/conductors that don't want low notes "added" in lines where they are appropriate, or in editions where the bass part is written with "everything has to stay above an E" even though there is no reason for that line to go G, F, jump up an octave Eb, D, Eb, jump back down an octave F, G, etc. I have yet to encounter one who asked that notes written down there be moved up an octave. If there are low C's in your part and the request actually was for "no C extension", then you might have found the unicorn of someone who doesn't want those low notes down there, but I wouldn't bank on that. So I'm assuming that they want the low notes, and you've got to figure out how to make that happen.

Apparently hipshots have changed, or my memory of them has. I don't remember them being able to handle E-C, and thought that you might get a minor third out of them but a major third was right out. With that in mind, they work significantly better with a steel core string than a synthetic or gut, so you likely want something like a Spirocore down there. I would also suggest you go to a Mittel or Stark so there is some tension on the string, and keep in mind that there are a ton of different varieties of Spirocore strings. It sounds like you've already set this in motion, and it should hopefully get you through the show.

Since you've found a way to make low notes happen, I wouldn't bring it up unless you get questioned about it. If they specifically asked for someone with a C extension and you show up without one, then "I have the low notes, I'm just using a different way to get there" should be just as valid of an option. I am tuned in 5ths and there can sometimes be a bunch of political garbage associated with that, but having the low notes instead of not having them has never been a part of that.

"Should a Kay have an extension/is it justified?" seems to be another question you are faced with. A lot of people would say no. Adding an extension to a bass is usually at least $1000 and often can be more expensive than that. If you end up selling the Kay at some point, most of the people who would be interested in a Kay aren't interested in an extension and plenty of them would even remove it. If they aren't turned off by it they also aren't going to want to pay much/any more than the going rate for a comparable Kay without one, which means you would be eating most/all of the cost of it. There likely are a few out there, but just because there is a precedent doesn't mean it is the right course of action.

"Should I have a bass with an extension?" is a question I would be asking myself. If you get the hipshot, it works like a dream, and you learn how to play from the Ab down to C all on the bottom string, you might have your answer. If the hipshot gets you through this pinch but it's awkward to play anything other than goose eggs down there and the lower tension means everything sounds like a wet noodle fart, then maybe it isn't the answer. Depending on your career trajectory you might find yourself in a situation where having the low notes is an expectation, not a bonus. If that is the case, then maybe your Kay isn't the instrument to get you there. I have nothing against Kays and I know that not everyone can own an old Italian bass worth more than their house but I am aware that everything has realistic expectations, and you might be pushing the boundaries.