I was wondering why B and E don't have a sharp?

[KPAX]

If you had separate B#, C and E#, F then you would have 14 semitones between octaves (instead of 12).
That would sound radically different (and dissonant) from what we're used to.
Since you'd be squishing 14 (instead of 12) notes between a doubling of frequency (next octave up), the adjacent semitones would be closer to one another in frequency. Frequency-wise, you wouldn't get the pleasing sounding intervals that we get in our 3rds, 5ths, etc. in the 12 semitone system. You'd get something very different.
Aside from the total unfamiliarity factor and cultural conditioning, I'm not sure how well those frequencies would mesh together.
This is a bit mathematical but I believe our ("well tempered") 12 semitone system with equal 2^1/12 factors separating adjacent frequencies (as you go up) was developed for good reason. Overall, it probably offers the most pleasing system for harmony. I don't think it's random.
Or ... maybe it's all a conspiracy to save money on fret wire!

I was wondering this too. Why isn't it just A A# B B# C C# D D# E E# F# ?

 

[Nagrom]

"Luckily I never had to play in F#, but I always practiced that scale just in case."
What, your guitard doesn't have a capo?

"and if you're playing in F# or C#, the wind section is tearing their hair out"
We do a tune in C# with horns (and a capo on the guitar, of course...) and yes, there is a fair amount of whining before & after.

 

[Dave-Action-Fig]

I think that they started off from an A minor scale.
So A, B, C, D, E, F, G, back to A.

It's not a fact but it just seems logical to me.

 

[EADG mx]

If you had separate B#, C and E#, F then you would have 14 semitones between octaves (instead of 12).
That would sound radically different (and dissonant) from what we're used to.
Since you'd be squishing 14 (instead of 12) notes between a doubling of frequency (next octave up), the adjacent semitones would be closer to one another in frequency. Frequency-wise, you wouldn't get the pleasing sounding intervals that we get in our 3rds, 5ths, etc. in the 12 semitone system. You'd get something very different.
Aside from the total unfamiliarity factor and cultural conditioning, I'm not sure how well those frequencies would mesh together.
This is a bit mathematical but I believe our ("well tempered") 12 semitone system with equal 2^1/12 factors separating adjacent frequencies (as you go up) was developed for good reason. Overall, it probably offers the most pleasing system for harmony. I don't think it's random.
Or ... maybe it's all a conspiracy to save money on fret wire!

I think you missed the point, the question is not why there are 12 notes in the chromatic scale, but why the 12 notes we have are named what they are.

 

[EADG mx]

I think that they started off from an A minor scale.
So A, B, C, D, E, F, G, back to A.

It's not a fact but it just seems logical to me.

In C major, it helps one to identify the semi-tones (like I said).

In A minor, it also serves the same purpose and also lines the first letter of the alphabet with the tonic (like you said).


In any key, it helps one in navigating the keyboard.

 

[Crunka]

i once read that in arabian/middle eastern there's quarter steps and one eight steps, as in more notes.

so after C there's C+1/8 then C+1/4 then C#


i don't remember very well so *flame shield up*

 

[cassanova]

Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
I was wondering this too. Why isn't it just A A# B B# C C# D D# E E# F# ?

I asked my theory professor this one time. IIRC her answer went something like this.

Short answer. It avoids confusion.

The key signature identifies what notes are sharp/flat. You cannot use the same note twice in the same in the key because it would be quite confusing to read and you'd not know what not to play.

EX: Say A and A# are in the same piece. If you were reading the key sig you wouldn't know whether to play the A or A#.

 

[EADG mx]

This is another reason I thought of, notation wouldn't work at all. Although that may not have anything to do with how the chromatic scale was conceived, it sure is a good reason for keeping it.

 

[rcarraher]

Any ideas?

About 30 or more years ago, I knew the answer to this question. Now I maybe way off base, but if memory serves...(and lately it hasn't but, hey!) It has something to do with the A440 tuning (pretty standard in western music). That means that for some reason that an A vibrates at 440 cycles (henceforth known as Hrz). If you take 440 Cycles and add 1/8 of 440 to it and then the same 1/8 of 440 to that etc...you get the Hrz (okay cycles) of each note in the octave until you arrive back at A at 880 cycles (Hrz).

In the key of C you end up with the old Tone Tone Semi Tone Tone Tone Tone "rule". Which leaves no B and E sharp. Then again, it might be that the guy who invented the Piano screwed up and didn't lay out the keys in White, Black, White Black and therefore ran out of Sharpss (or flats if he had the blues). Its late, and I don't have nearly enough whisky to get into the science or math behind all this, but if your game....and have more whisky, maybe you can work it all out. I think thats how I figured all this out some 30 odd years ago. Then again, I was drinking Whisky....Chivas, if memory serves

 

[powellmacaque]

I see all the scientific answers, but if they wanted 12 semitones, why didn't they just make it:

A A#/Bb B B#/Cb C C#/Db D D#/Eb E E#/Fb F F#/Ab

There's probably a flaw in my logic...

And I don't really buy the keyboard answer (no offense). If they had repeating keys, they probably could have made the C key (or whatever key) a different color to signify octaves. Kind of like our fret inlays...

 

[seanm]

I see all the scientific answers, but if they wanted 12 semitones, why didn't they just make it:

A A#/Bb B B#/Cb C C#/Db D D#/Eb E E#/Fb F F#/Ab

There's probably a flaw in my logic...

And I don't really buy the keyboard answer (no offense). If they had repeating keys, they probably could have made the C key (or whatever key) a different color to signify octaves. Kind of like our fret inlays...

I haven't done the math, but I think the above system means there are no major scales without accidentals in them. Basically, if you played A B C D E F it would sound bad to our western ears.

 

[rcarraher]

I see all the scientific answers, but if they wanted 12 semitones, why didn't they just make it:

A A#/Bb B B#/Cb C C#/Db D D#/Eb E E#/Fb F F#/Ab

There's probably a flaw in my logic...

And I don't really buy the keyboard answer (no offense). If they had repeating keys, they probably could have made the C key (or whatever key) a different color to signify octaves. Kind of like our fret inlays...

No offense taken. I was half a**ed joking about the keyboard. Work your a a#/Bb logic through all its possibilities and you'll see the flaw. Firstly you end up with 14 note in an octave....

 

[JansenW]

I see all the scientific answers, but if they wanted 12 semitones, why didn't they just make it:

A A#/Bb B B#/Cb C C#/Db D D#/Eb E E#/Fb F F#/Ab

There's probably a flaw in my logic...

And I don't really buy the keyboard answer (no offense). If they had repeating keys, they probably could have made the C key (or whatever key) a different color to signify octaves. Kind of like our fret inlays...

IIRC, if you spell out the scales using these 12 semitones this way, you would run out of letters in octave scales.

Normally the A major scale would have: A B C# D E F# G#
Your proposed scale (A major) would have: A B C Db Eb Fb Ab (A is used twice)

Normally the C major scale would have: C D E F G A B
Your proposed scale (in this case, called B# major) would have: B# C# D# E F A B (B is used twice)

etc.

It's best to use 7 letters to notate notes in an octave. With 7 letters for 12 semitones, 2 (=2*7-12) semitones would have to have only natrual enharmonic names, B-C and E-F lost out (most probably because of the way they sound in western music).

 

[HaVIC5]

I see all the scientific answers, but if they wanted 12 semitones, why didn't they just make it:

A A#/Bb B B#/Cb C C#/Db D D#/Eb E E#/Fb F F#/Ab

There's probably a flaw in my logic...

And I don't really buy the keyboard answer (no offense). If they had repeating keys, they probably could have made the C key (or whatever key) a different color to signify octaves. Kind of like our fret inlays...

That would get ridiculously confusing with simple things like key signatures. There's a very simple reason why there are 7 letters - the major scale (and most scales), have 7 notes in them. Spelling them with just 6 letter names will get VERY messy, VERY quickly.

 

[rodl2005]

Why is there such names as Db 'demented' & E 'demonic' Another 'BAD' joke round here surfaced after the mining disaster a few yrs ago- when in Beaconsfield-in the north of the state where I live.. A underground mine collapsed- one guy died (God rest his soul) & two guys spent 2 weeks in a cage WAY underground-but miraculously survived!!!
But MANY songs are in the KEY of 'A flat miner' Ewwwwwww........sorry!

 

[AleemRadunzel]

this sounds like an introduction tothe eastern scale

 

[xzzy]

it would sound bad to our western ears.

And this is why the system is the way it is.

While it's true that we can spend years and years identifying patterns and figuring out math to explain why the system works, in the end one has to realize that the foundation was developed because it sounds "satisfying" to our ears.

Most of the work done since is a result of people trying to make sense of the whole thing. It would be convenient for newbies if the scales followed simple, easily divisible rules, but unfortunately a person would have a hard time convincing the ears of billions of people to accept it.

 

[Slipper]

Hello everyone, I had the same question than the author of this post, and went through all the answers.
I haven't understood most of the more elaborated ones. But it seems there are two different consensus here.

1. B# and E# do exits, but they are not on the bass fret board.
2. B# an E# do not exits, as it is a musical convention.

Could you please let me know what is the correct statement?
And what post of this thread would be the more relevant to explain it?
Thanks for the help!

 

[mambo4]

1. B# and E# do exits, but they are not on the bass fret board.
2. B# an E# do not exits, as it is a musical convention.

Could you please let me know what is the correct statement?

neither seems correct to me.
B# and E# exist on the bass fret board, Same location as C and F
the correct name and notation depends entirely on context : the key or chord.

The claim that B# / E# do not exist is a frivolous philosophical nitpick
Which lies outside the context of notation or music theory.
Akin to arguing about weather "pop" or "soda" is the correct term

 

[Wasnex]

I was wondering why B and E don't have a sharp?
Any ideas?

In fact B and E do have sharps (see the circle of 5ths graphic below)

If you look at the key signature for F#Maj/D#Min, you will see E# in the key signature. If you look at the key signature for C#Maj/A#Min, you will see both B# and E# in the key signature.

However note that C#Maj/A#Min are enharmonic to DbMaj/BbMinor. Some people prefer to work in the flat keys so they have less accidentals to deal with. In other words, an arrange or composer may choose to right in DbMaj instead of C#Maj.

The circle of 5ths stops at 15 Major keys. and 15 Minor keys. You can go further, but you will be dealing with enharmonics and double sharps and double flats, so it's both messy and unnecessary. AFAIK, We call those theoretical keys.