Idea for a new Strings section, sticky.

[n00bass]

I'm just a beginner bass player and I'm new to the forum too, but that doesn't stop me from seeing what is now plainly obvious to me no where in the world is there a resource with accurate unequivocal information on the string winding lengths. But wait you say there are two stickies in this very forum. Yes but the one by manufacturers only has one size for each manufacturer, when I have discovered that the sets I have bought are not all the same length and this has caused me to make some very time consuming mistakes. Not only that but some manufacturers have changed their lengths.

This is what I propose.

A permanent sticky thread, that is gradually added to with accurate winding lengths of EVERY STRING in a set as measured personally by the person who posts it from ball end to silk. But there's already a sticky with that. Yes but even assuming that it's still up to date, it does NOT contain the winding length of EVERY STRING, so there's always a gotcha ready to jump out and bite you.

To me this is so obvious and easy to do and would be the definitive resource worthy of what I'm told is the largest bass forum in the known universe.

How it would work is that whenever someone buys a new set of strings, that they personally measure the ball end to silk/thinning, of every string in the set. That's it. No comments no chat, if the set you've bought is already listed then it is not listed twice, unless you have discovered a discrepancy due to perhaps the manufacurer changing the specified length.

I suggest it is string length only not cluttered up with tension specs or other technical stuff. Then knowing that there is this accurate resource, people can know for sure what they are going to get and make their own decision about whether they will accept a certain amount of meat on the peg, or not. It should have a clear format, Just the exact string model and the relevant lengths.

Over time as more data is collected, I envisage that a moderator would clean it up, gather the lengths by brand and so forth, so that it's clean easy to read and above all, accurate.

 

[michael_t]

GHS has recently added on their website a list of available gauges in singles under each model according to "scale length", which includes the info on winding length.

For example... Singles - Bass Super Steels

You can look for the info on winding length under each model.

Products - Bass - GHS Strings

As far as I know, GHS is the only company who publishes info on both winding lengths along with a comprehensive tension guide.

Thank you, GHS and @Jon Moody !

 

[Jon Moody]

I'm just a beginner bass player and I'm new to the forum too, but that doesn't stop me from seeing what is now plainly obvious to me no where in the world is there a resource with accurate unequivocal information on the string winding lengths.

I think you're beating a dead horse with this. Like you said, there are resources available already.

Also, something to consider. Unless the strings you're winding are tapered with no silk AND on an automated machine, there's going to be a tolerance. Especially with silked ends; we apply that by hand. With that, you're probably looking at a 1/8-1/4 sway in either direction. So, to say something has a 37.25" winding length, you have to assume it could be anywhere from 37"-37.5", and that could vary by string.

So, the manufacturers list is going to be the most accurate, as that's what they use themselves. If you find something wildly off, it's probably the wrong string in the set. And that's a different issue.

...I have discovered that the sets I have bought are not all the same length and this has caused me to make some very time consuming mistakes.

Can you explain this statement more? As in, how off were each string; 1/8", 1/4" or 1" or more? Because if it's the first two, that's not a concern. If it's the last one, that's a different issue.

Not only that but some manufacturers have changed their lengths.

That's a completely different matter entirely, and doesn't usually just "happen."

...if the set you've bought is already listed then it is not listed twice, unless you have discovered a discrepancy due to perhaps the manufacurer changing the specified length.

If you went this route, you would definitely WANT to have everyone chime in with their measurements as it lends more validity to your claim. It's the same as looking at Google reviews; a 4 star rating with 300 reviews carries far more weight than a 5 star rating with 12 reviews.

 

[Jon Moody]

GHS has recently added on their website a list of available gauges in singles under each model according to "scale length", which includes the info on winding length.

There is an ulterior motive to that. We're working (or, should say, I am working) on integrating our standalone online store into the main website. And to do that, all the products have to be up and online.

 

[michael_t]

There is an ulterior motive to that. We're working (or, should say, I am working) on integrating our standalone online store into the main website. And to do that, all the products have to be up and online.

"Ulterior motive" on your part or not, I have to tell you how much I appreciate being able to see all the info I need right on your website.

One of the valuable lessons I've learned since I joined TB is to always think in terms of "winding length" instead of "scale length" when trying to find a string set to fit any specific bass.

 

[n00bass]

Can you explain this statement more? As in, how off were each string; 1/8", 1/4" or 1" or more? Because if it's the first two, that's not a concern. If it's the last one, that's a different issue.

Well my recent decent into the madness that is string winding lengths began when I ordered some new 760FGS gold flats for my Cort A4, which was bequeathed to me by the gf after she got a Fender, I'd only ever put daddario on it and I just buy the strings and string it up, I never even thought about winding lengths. I like flats and I thought the gold strings would look nice on the dark transparent green, what could go wrong, long scale strings for a long scale bass, right?

Meanwhile I bought myself a short scale Gretsch that came my way at a good price, it had old strings and wire wounds too, because it was a short scale I had to suddenly pay attention to winding lengths. Now that I knew about winding lengths, I thought I'd check what the winding lengths were on the 760FGS, and after looking around the inter webs I see that they are said to be 36 1/2" but I also saw 37" listed. So I thought I'd clear that up with LaBella. This is what I got back...

Here are the specifications for the 760FGS set (distance from ball-end to silk, silk should start after the nut, only the silk should wrap around the tuning post):

1st (G): 38”
2nd (D): 38”
3rd (A): 38”
4th (E): 36 3⁄4”

The E string split the difference, but the G is too big and now I'm still waiting for them to arrive so I can send them back. It gets worse but that's in another thread. Yeah I could simply let the G wind around the peg and be done with it, and in hindsight I wish I did that, but I have already ordered some Fender 9050L's which will fit.

Then before ordering some Thomastiks I asked the seller to measure the strings, which he did, and it was good, and I ordered them. Then I got this message...

g string (thinest) 95.5cm
d string 95.5cm
a string 95cm
e string 93.5cm

This time I have measured from the ball to the silk wrap at the other end. I had someone else measure previously, and I think they measured from the end of the wrap at the ball end (hence they measured a couple of cm shorter). I apologise about any confusion earlier, hopefully this helps.

So I did my due diligence but I still got screwed.

Edit: oh I see you're a GHS person, I ended up ordering some GHS because they are 35.5" which is what I want for my Gretsch. Please tell me that really are 35.5" I couldn't get the ones I wanted in Australia, so I'm waiting for them from the US

BTW, the details on how it should be or how it should be updated were only suggestions, I'll leave it to the mods to work out the details. I'm just saying wouldn't it be loverly if there was a resource where people like myself could look up every set and get the measurements for each string and to also know that I could trust it as well as if I measured it myself. Not because some manager asked a doofus to do it.

 

[michael_t]

Here are the specifications for the 760FGS set (distance from ball-end to silk, silk should start after the nut, only the silk should wrap around the tuning post):

1st (G): 38”
2nd (D): 38”
3rd (A): 38”
4th (E): 36 3⁄4”

The E string split the difference, but the rest are too big and now I'm still waiting for them to arrive so I can send them back. It gets worse but that's in another thread.

The idea of the main body of the string wrapping around the tuning post is more of a issue with larger strings (B and E) than smaller ones. Obviously, the La Bella's specs work best with the Fender-style in-line head stock, where the tuner post for the largest string sits the closest to the nut. And that's why their string sets are designed in a way the E is short enough not to go around the post.

(La Bella DTF 760FL)

 

[n00bass]

Look I don't care whether it matters or not, I just want to know the winding length of the strings I'm buying. Is that unreasonable?

 

[michael_t]

Look I don't care whether it matters or not, I just want to know the winding length of the strings I'm buying. Is that unreasonable?

That's exactly my point... I'm 100% with you on this; I wish ALL string companies would do what GHS has done - list the actual winding lengths of each and every set right on their website.

 

[Jon Moody]

I thought I'd check what the winding lengths were on the 760FGS, and after looking around the inter webs I see that they are said to be 36 1/2" but I also saw 37" listed. So I thought I'd clear that up with LaBella. This is what I got back...

Here are the specifications for the 760FGS set (distance from ball-end to silk, silk should start after the nut, only the silk should wrap around the tuning post):

1st (G): 38”
2nd (D): 38”
3rd (A): 38”
4th (E): 36 3⁄4”

The E string split the difference, but the G is too big and now I'm still waiting for them to arrive so I can send them back. It gets worse but that's in another thread. Yeah I could simply let the G wind around the peg and be done with it, and in hindsight I wish I did that, but I have already ordered some Fender 9050L's which will fit.

I can't speak for LaBella, but having a couple of sets like the above (usually with our B strings) in our line, it's usually more a matter of inventory (or was, when they were created). As in, if we offered a set of strings that was 37.25" long as well as 38" long, that would equate to 10 different strings on the shelf, for four sets (4st & 5st at each winding length).

Now, the G string is small enough that wrapping it around the tuner is not an issue (strings that have no silk do this ALL THE TIME), so it comes down to finding out what string really matters. And that's usually the B string, sometimes the E.

With that, having a 38" winding length EADG strings and then a 37.25" and 38" B string becomes more reasonable, as now you cover the same 4 sets of strings, but with 6 different strings on the shelf. And the thing is, most everyone does something like this. But, if there's no colored silk to show it to you aesthetically, you don't notice it.

Edit: oh I see you're a GHS person, I ended up ordering some GHS because they are 35.5" which is what I want for my Gretsch. Please tell me that really are 35.5" I couldn't get the ones I wanted in Australia, so I'm waiting for them from the US

They should be 35.5" yes, unless you get an old set of strings, which I cannot control. When I've changed string lengths, I will put it into production a year or two prior to publicly announcing the change. That usually gives us enough time to cycle through any outdated inventory, as well as at our dealers.

However, I still can't control that. Medium scale strings, comparatively, are not bought in anywhere near the same quantities as the other winding lengths.

Obviously, the La Bella's specs work best with the Fender-style in-line head stock...

And while we can argue all day about it, that headstock style (4 inline) is the gross majority of all basses out there.

Look I don't care whether it matters or not, I just want to know the winding length of the strings I'm buying. Is that unreasonable?

It's not, but you have to also understand that, unlike guitars, basses aren't nearly as streamlined and uniform across the board. ESPECIALLY with "short scale" basses, as you're finding out.

 

[iiipopes]

D'Addario does:
Short: 32"
Medium: 34"
Long 37 1/8"
Super Long 38"
As well as the tensions in side bars on each set of strings as you navigate the web site.
CAVEAT: the new web site appears to have been thrown together hurriedly, and there may be some mistakes in the sidebars.
D'Addario was actually the first to have a tension guide years ago, which due to new strings and some re-formulations, may or may not be accurate anymore, either.

Thanks to Jon Moody. We have conversed on these issues in the past, and I appreciate all the work he is doing to update the GHS bass string line. The GHS string guide with speaking lengths and tensions can be found here:
http://www.ghsrep.net/uploads/2/2/2/5/22258814/ghs_bass_string_guide.pdf

And looking forward to the end of the Coronavirus pandemic so everyone can get back to work playing and making great strings for all of us players, including updating the chart when Progressives 2.0 come on line.

 

[iiipopes]

...but you have to also understand that, unlike guitars, basses aren't nearly as streamlined and uniform across the board. ESPECIALLY with "short scale" basses, as you're finding out.

THIS ^ That is why Jason @ Fretnation and others, including I believe threads on this forum, post the lengths of how long various basses are strung from from anchor to nut. For example, for short scale basses, here are three examples that all have 30" scale lengths, but all need different strings:

Gibson EB3 - the anchor part of the bridge, so "short" scale strings usually work.
Hofner 500/1 - the tailpiece anchor is separated from the bridge by a significant amount, so these basses sometimes use "medium" scale strings, or dedicated sets, depending on the manufacturer.
Harmony H22 - the tail anchor is at the end of the body, with a lot of afterlength between the bridge and the anchor, so these basses use standard long scale strings.

Again, all three of these basses have 30-inch scale lengths and 2X2 tuners on headstocks which are similar in size and offset from the nut to the tuners.

On the other hand: Rickenbacker, of course, has 33 1/4 inch scale, but due to the anchor being behind the bridge saddles by more than "Fender standard," and having the greater offset E string tuner on the 4001/2/3/4, use regular long scale strings. The Ibanez BTB845V is a 33 inch scale, but again, due to the long single string bridges and offset B tuner in a 2+3 configuration, also use standard long scale strings, in this case OEM D'Addario with the 37 1/8 inch speaking length.

So the speaking lengths and leaders of strings is only the first part of the picture. The other part of the picture is measuring on the instrument from the anchor to the tuner side of the nut, then to the tuner post, to cross-reference string selection so that the speaking length is neither too long nor too short. For example, on my Ibby BTB845V, which I converted to B-G from E-C, the anchor to the tuner side of the nut of the B string is 35 inches, and to center of the tuner post is 37 1/2 inches, so "medium" strings that only have a 34-inch speaking length will not work, although the GHS "medium" at 35 1/2 would. Most manufacturer's "standard long scale" (except DR and a few others are too long for my B string tuner) do work on my Ibby BTB845V; the E-A-D string tuners are far enough upstream that it doesn't matter; and as Jon Moody said, the G string is thin enough it doesn't matter if the speaking length wraps around the tuner post, either.

Thanks to Jason @ Fretnation for allowing me to summarize his longer article on the subject:
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The classified threads have many entries where folks got the wrong strings and have to unload them at a loss.

The current sticky thread with bass manufacturer's speaking lengths, which a couple of times in the last few months I have emailed the moderator of the thread with updated info that does not seem to have incorporated into an update:
Bass String Lengths by Manufacturer

 

[n00bass]

I wrote to Fender.com last week to ask them the winding length of the 9050L. Fender, the same Fender who write 'Fender' on their Fender strings.

This is what I just received back...

Hi Andrew,


Thanks for your e-mail.


I don’t have the exact length of the Fender® USA 9050L Stainless Steel Flatwound (.045-.100 Gauges) on hand, we do use those strings on the Fender JMJ Mustang Bass which also has a 30” scale & they work really nicely on that instrument.


Regards,


Heath Blows,

Fender Music Australia P/L

Invalid Link Removed


Jesus mother of fcuk. What is fcuking wrong with these people. Just go and get a packet and fcuking measure it, don't take a week to tell me you don't know. Does the Gretsch in any way shape or form look like a fcuking Mustang.

I'm done.

 

[n00bass]

THIS ^ That is why Jason @ Fretnation and others, including I believe threads on this forum, post the lengths of how long various basses are strung from from anchor to nut. For example, for short scale basses, here are three examples that all have 30" scale lengths, but all need different strings:

Gibson EB3 - the anchor part of the bridge, so "short" scale strings usually work.
Hofner 500/1 - the tailpiece anchor is separated from the bridge by a significant amount, so these basses sometimes use "medium" scale strings, or dedicated sets, depending on the manufacturer.
Harmony H22 - the tail anchor is at the end of the body, with a lot of afterlength between the bridge and the anchor, so these basses use standard long scale strings.

Again, all three of these basses have 30-inch scale lengths and 2X2 tuners on headstocks which are similar in size and offset from the nut to the tuners.

On the other hand: Rickenbacker, of course, has 33 1/4 inch scale, but due to the anchor being behind the bridge saddles by more than "Fender standard," and having the greater offset E string tuner on the 4001/2/3/4, use regular long scale strings. The Ibanez BTB845V is a 33 inch scale, but again, due to the long single string bridges and offset B tuner in a 2+3 configuration, also use standard long scale strings, in this case OEM D'Addario with the 37 1/8 inch speaking length.

So the speaking lengths and leaders of strings is only the first part of the picture. The other part of the picture is measuring on the instrument from the anchor to the tuner side of the nut, then to the tuner post, to cross-reference string selection so that the speaking length is neither too long nor too short. For example, on my Ibby BTB845V, which I converted to B-G from E-C, the anchor to the tuner side of the nut of the B string is 35 inches, and to center of the tuner post is 37 1/2 inches, so "medium" strings that only have a 34-inch speaking length will not work, although the GHS "medium" at 35 1/2 would. Most manufacturer's "standard long scale" (except DR and a few others are too long for my B string tuner) do work on my Ibby BTB845V; the E-A-D string tuners are far enough upstream that it doesn't matter; and as Jon Moody said, the G string is thin enough it doesn't matter if the speaking length wraps around the tuner post, either.

Thanks to Jason @ Fretnation for allowing me to summarize his longer article on the subject:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The classified threads have many entries where folks got the wrong strings and have to unload them at a loss.

The current sticky thread with bass manufacturer's speaking lengths, which a couple of times in the last few months I have emailed the moderator of the thread with updated info that does not seem to have incorporated into an update:
Bass String Lengths by Manufacturer

Exactly. I currently have nearly $300 dollars worth of Strings I have to send back. And it's why we need a sticky thread where we post the exact length of the strings from ball to silk, as measured when the new packet arrives. Then it's up to the mods of Talkbass to organise this data.

I do not want to know what basses they fit, I want to know the winding lengths then I can work out for myself which pegs if any will have the meat wrapped around them. I will be the one to decide if I am prepared to tolerate it on all the strings, some of the strings, none of the strings or whatever. Maybe I want to build a bass from a piece of tree limb, maybe I want to hang myself and I want to get the length perfect. Whatever, just tell me what the winding length is. Is there any other industry that do this bs.

I just watched Idiocracy last night, I think it's closer than the year 2500.

 

[JKos]

@n00bass ,
Did you check the fretnation web site for winding length info? Every string they sell. As in, lots of different strings.

- John

 

[Jaco who?]

@n00bass ,
Did you check the fretnation web site for winding length info? Every string they sell. As in, lots of different strings.


-John

+1 It's probably not perfect, But it's been extremely accurate every time I've used it. Click on the link below:

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[n00bass]

@Jaco who? @JKos I have already bought strings from Fretnation, thanks to earlier advice and yes I have already determined that whenever I need new strings I will not be purchasing from anyone else other than fret nation in future. So perhaps instead of a sticky that has string winding length uploaded by users and organised by mods as a reference, they could have a sticky that says "go to fretnation if you need to know string winding length. Somehow that doesn't look like a good idea. I'm sorry I started this thread.

I see my above post has been edited by mods to remove the email that I got from Fender which I copy and pasted it would have made more sense to delete the post. I wrote to Fender Australia and asked them what the winding length was and they said they don't know, let me repeat that Fender don't know Fender Australia their own branded strings. However they <sarcasm>usefully</s> were able to tell me they fit their 30" mustang bass really well. So therefore they must be good for my 30" Gretsch with 2x2 tuning pegs and a huge tailpiece. This is why I copy and pasted the email, because who would believe that.

 

[n00bass]

+1 It's probably not perfect, But it's been extremely accurate every time I've used it. Click on the link below:

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Yes it's not perfect, and if it's not perfect then it's perfectly useless to me because if I make an error it's too expensive to then pay return postage from Australia. Jason was very helpful and told me the medium GHS flats are 35.5" which is what I want so I purchased a couple of set. But I will point out that they are listed as 34" on the fret nation website you linked to. Not only that but as I said in my OP, they still don't list every string. How many times does this need to be said?

I can't even go down to a shop locally and measure the strings I want because there are no local shops with the strings I want. I asked another local supplier to measure a different set for me and they did, and I bought them and they then emailed me back to say they measured them wrong, and the new measurements won't fit. I'm not making any of this up.

 

[iiipopes]

And it's why we need a sticky thread where we post the exact length of the strings from ball to silk, as measured when the new packet arrives. Then it's up to the mods of Talkbass to organise this data.

Yes, exactly. That is what the sticky thread is all about: length of "speaking" winding from ball to the start of the silk, or the point the taper to the leader starts if there is no silk, as is the case with current D'Addario XL's. If the mods will keep it updated. I post the link again, which is a sticky at the top of the strings section of the forum:
Bass String Lengths by Manufacturer

 

[bolophonic]

Dude, no offense, but there are millions of bassists out here who have managed to string their instruments for decades without a standardized guide or returning hundreds of dollars of strings ordered in error. Maybe the strings are not the problem here?