IEM mix without miking everything

[backin82]

My band switched to a full IEM setup about a year ago, but still have a lot of amplified / acoustics on stage as well. I'll offer a few lessons learned.

1. Mic'ing everyone is basically required to get it right, especially if you aim to achieve the same (or very close) mix in your ears regardless of the venue.
2. You can still have amps on stage with mics or direct outs, but it's important that every channel goes to the board for control.
3. This takes a lot of gear and a lot of setup time unless you have a dedicated rehearsal space. You need all the mics, mic cables, IEM setup (which may also include a wifi setup), apps or dedicated consoles for mixing, etc...
4. It takes time to sort out what works best for each person. Don't give up on the idea too early. It took us about 2 rehearsals to even get it all routed and working properly, and a few more to really dial it in for live use.
5. It's so much better than wedges for so many reasons. First and foremost, it has the ability to protect your hearing. Secondly, you can provide individual mixes for each person if you have the right gear. Thirdly, you can get nearly the exact same mix regardless of venue, which is hugely helpful. Lastly, you have the option of eliminating a LOT of stage volume, which can really help FOH in a lot ways.

We recently shot a video in a studio that didn't have a lot of monitoring capabilities for the live audio capture, and they wanted me to share a mix with our fiddle player. During setup she informed me that her mix includes herself and the lead singer. That's it. She turns everyone else all the way down. I was shocked. I have no clue how she can stand that. I immediately protested, and we switched to me and the keyboard player sharing so we could actually hear the entire mix. Some people are insane.

But the main point is that IEM is pretty hard work to get right, and it can expensive.

I also think it's worth the effort. Every time we plug into our rack at a new venue, we all sigh in relief that the mix is exactly how we left it, and we don't have to run through the stupid wedge sound check sequence with everyone complaining they can't hear. It just works perfectly every time.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

why are your guitarists not mic'ed and in the FOH mix?????????

Some guitar players are like that. I have one it my primary band (trio) that refuses to even consider. He claims it "ruins" the sound. He believed he had to have a Marshall stack to get "his sound". Recently, we got him down to a 50w Black Star because he had some serious health issues and now can't load the Marshall gear.
He also has decided he wants to do IEMs, but he ordered a setup from some Chinese company that is a serious POS and he doesn't use them.

 

[Jack]

It will not fix the sound from 'modellers' though, so your great sound from the pedal board is very very hard to transfer up into basic local level P.A's. So much so, that even guys known for having great sounds with amps really struggle to transfer with Kemplers and the like.

Why do you think this happens? Do modellers just inherently sound bad or do you think people can't use them?

 

[Wasnex]

Why do you think this happens?

I have heard modelers sound quite good through a PA. Better or worse than an amp? I can't say without an AB test. There is also the matter that taste is subjective. So whoever is adjusting the sound in the FOH mix may think it sounds great, but you may disagree. You usually can't make everybody happy .

 

[pepj]

A lot of the "sound" depends on what they used as a reference speaker when dialing in "their sound" . Using ear bud as the reference may not be the best idea, using a PA speaker would be better. Eq'ing the in ear mix then to sound like they want after the modeler has been dialed in.

Quite probably the same speakers they run gigs through. Probably at studio sound levels though, not gig level.
However, his Morgan sounded great and his new rig can't touch it...so its not like he doesn't know what should be his reference sound.

And a couple of these guys who are known for their sound, pre Kemper, now suffer running through QSC type P.A.s.
Even his own band told him the same.

 

[s0c9]

Quite probably the same speakers they run gigs through. Probably at studio sound levels though, not gig level.
However, his Morgan sounded great and his new rig can't touch it...so its not like he doesn't know what should be his reference sound.

And a couple of these guys who are known for their sound, pre Kemper, now suffer running through QSC type P.A.s.
Even his own band told him the same.

Could be as simple as not knowing how to set up modeler. They often come with far more parameters than an amp and one can easily make them sound like crud. I’ve run plenty of modelers back when I played guitar - was even a beta tester (technically still am) for Fractal Audio for years. I’ve heard plenty of A/B’s of amps/modelers, been at some too. In a blind comparison most cannot distinguish between the two.
And as a seasoned freelance FOH guy, I can assure you it ain’t the PA speakers either.
What I read from your posts is you have a guitarist who doesn’t know how to set up their modeler. That results in garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Wasnex]

What I read from your posts is you have a guitarist who doesn’t know how to set up their modeler. That results in garbage in, garbage out.

Here's my guess.

Channel strips have only one EQ section. If the EQ is prioritized for the artists' listening pleasure, there is a good chance it won't be optimal for the house mix. Ideally FOH would have dedicated channel EQs and each monitor mix would have dedicated channel EQs; so everyone gets custom tone adjustments dialed in to their liking. FYI, this can actually be achieve with Behringer consoles that work with the PowerPlay monitor mixers.

Another way around this problem is to dual assign inputs. Then one set of channels can be dialed in for FOH and the other set of channels can be dialed in for the IEM mixes. For example I have run a couple of Yamaha LS9s that were set up so FOH and the IEM mixes were set up on different fader levels to each had dedicated channel EQs. On the LS9-32, fader level A is channels 1-32 and fader level B is channels 33-64. Faders levels A and B are laid on top of each other virtually. In other words the fader for channel 1 is also the fader for channel 33. The 1st omni input is dual assigned to channels 1 and 33, the 2nd omni input is dual assigned to channels 2 and 34, the 3rd omni input is dual assigned to channels 3 and 35, etc. When the audio tech needs to adjust the FOH mix, he/she selects fader level A. When it is necessary to adjust tone or dynamics for a IEM mix, he/she selects fader level B. It's a bit more complicated than this, but I don't want to get too far down into the weeds.

Dual assigning the inputs like this can be very beneficial, but it is also more confusing and labor intensive. It's worth the effort if the band always uses the same system. Otherwise, it's probably way too much hassle. The groups I mixed used the same LS9 for rehearsals and gigs. During rehearsal they could dial in their IEM sound. Then on the gig, the audio tech could dial in the FOH mix without impact the artists' IEM mixes.

A caveat for a dual assigned system to work well: Ideally each artist's entire signal path should be dedicated/used only with the dual assigned system. The idea is to dial in a good sound for the IEM mixes, and pretty much lock it down. If someone uses gear with another system, chances are they will need to adjust gain and tone, which will throw off how the gear works with dual assigned system. IME, it makes a huge difference when the musicians finally grasp and accept this caveat. Then they can go from venue to venue and the IEM mixes stay very consistent. Until that happens, everyone will probably be frustrated from having to constantly "chasing their tail"

 

[richntiff]

Some guitar players are like that. I have one it my primary band (trio) that refuses to even consider. He claims it "ruins" the sound. He believed he had to have a Marshall stack to get "his sound". Recently, we got him down to a 50w Black Star because he had some serious health issues and now can't load the Marshall gear.
He also has decided he wants to do IEMs, but he ordered a setup from some Chinese company that is a serious POS and he doesn't use them.

Oh I know - but these are the people that I simply refuse to play with.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

He also has decided he wants to do IEMs, but he ordered a setup from some Chinese company that is a serious POS and he doesn't use them.

I'm guessing that right there and or along with not properly setting up an IEM system is why a lot of people say "I tried them and didn't like them"

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Oh I know - but these are the people that I simply refuse to play with.

I understand, but he has provided decent gigs for over 10 years now.

 

[pepj]

IEM or any plugs take some getting used to.
I've tried a fair few but never been delighted with any.
On the basis of that I'm loathe to spend $1k to seriously trade up when I don't use them 100% of the time.
Imo, the ZS range aren't great..they are functional and do a job better than the price comparables that I'm aware of.

 

[s0c9]

IEM or any plugs take some getting used to.
I've tried a fair few but never been delighted with any.
On the basis of that I'm loathe to spend $1k to seriously trade up when I don't use them 100% of the time.
Imo, the ZS range aren't great..they are functional and do a job better than the price comparables that I'm aware of.

Yes, they do - especially for those who've been playing with amps/wedges for years.
However, for bass, the seal is VERY important (no seal , no bass) and not all people can use universal fit IEM's - for various reasons, but mostly (AFAIK) due to small ear canals. I could never get them to work properly and found out at a hearing test that I have small canals.
I bit the bullet and went from cheaper UM1's (KZ's didn't exist back then) to 64Audio Qi's (4 driver no longer made) then during a 4-year stretch of 100+ gigs a year upgraded to their A8's which I still use. I 've done 2 (?) non-IEM gigs in the last 10 yrs. Horrible. Give me IEM's any day.
My gigs this weekend will be fully IEM using our own IEM mixer on stage with a split going to the House so they can run FOH.
We run our mixes, they run FOH.
Works great. Highly recommended for any band that uses House systems.
Hear great. Save your hearing!

 

[Dollar2]

Yes, they do - especially for those who've been playing with amps/wedges for years.
However, for bass, the seal is VERY important (no seal , no bass) and not all people can use universal fit IEM's - for various reasons, but mostly (AFAIK) due to small ear canals. I could never get them to work properly and found out at a hearing test that I have small canals.
I bit the bullet and went from cheaper UM1's (KZ's didn't exist back then) to 64Audio Qi's (4 driver no longer made) then during a 4-year stretch of 100+ gigs a year upgraded to their A8's which I still use. I 've done 2 (?) non-IEM gigs in the last 10 yrs. Horrible. Give me IEM's any day.
My gigs this weekend will be fully IEM using our own IEM mixer on stage with a split going to the House so they can run FOH.
We run our mixes, they run FOH.
Works great. Highly recommended for any band that uses House systems.
Hear great. Save your hearing!

This! 100%! We did a gig for a town-sponsored firework show last weekend and we used wedges rather than our IEM system. Sound company is difficult to work with and there was a quick change to another band after us so we suffered. Splitter snake is the way to go