IEM mix without miking everything

[mizzle]

Hi all,

Just wondering if there is a way for me to use my items and have the rest of the band mix in them without having to mic up everything.

2 guitarists, 4 vocals , myself on bass then drums.

I'd run my stomp into the mixer (XR18 and get that out to my iems) drummer sometimes mics up his kit - bass drum, snare and 1 OH.

That leaves just the two guitars who ideally want nothing else plugged in other than vocals and will use a monitor between them.

My thoughts was possibly something like the Behringer C2's pointed at the stage perhaps and roll off the bass frequencies.
Not ideal but might work unless there are any other ideas?

 

[TheArchitect]

In ears do lean heavily into the idea that things are routed to the mixer in some fashion, even if they are not routed to FOH for the Audience

 

[drpepper]

In my (limited) experience with it, trying to just use ambient mics wasn't at all satisfactory.

If you're willing to setup two ambient mics, an alternative that wouldn't be much more involved would be to mic the guitar amps and drums yourself for your IEM mix. When the drums are already mic'd, that would call for two mics (one on each guitar amp). When the drums aren't otherwise mic'd, you could probably get by with a total of 3 mics, just doing a kick mic for the drums (guit, guit, kick)...with 4 vocal mics on stage, chances are that between the kick, kick mic bleed and the bleed in the vocals, you'd get a workable sense of the drums.

Get yourself some mics, cables and whatever stands you need that you carry and setup

A set like this would work for for what you're trying to do. You can hang the smaller mics over the guitar amps by the cable and they pickup fine. If you're micing kick and snare (which is as far as I'd take it) you might want to get a mounting clip for the snare and a small stand for the kick or get two stands like this.

 

[richntiff]

why are your guitarists not mic'ed and in the FOH mix?????????

 

[mizzle]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, just got vocals going through FOH.
Drums may go FOH or at least be used just for monitoring.

The lead guitar/singer who's actually my brother thinks it is all too technical and making too many problems with putting microphones on etc.
Even though he's younger than me seems to have his head stuck in the 70's (though he was born nearer the 90's) and I think is going deaf as in my opinion we were playing way too loud.

 

[-Stingray]

Old school guitarists are usually the holdout. Everyone will be much happier if you can convince them to go with a Kemper/Fractal/QC, or even something cheaper like a Helix or Headrush. Drums can be acoustic, but we've had MUCH better luck using Roland V-Drums.

Cheaper Alternative For the Guitarists:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...nd-kettner-red-box-5-di-and-speaker-simulator

But using a Redbox will not fix volume levels if they still want to blast their amps to get "their tone". It only replaces the mic.

 

[Jack]

What are the guitar amps? Are there pedal boards? Just wondering if you can take a line out from somewhere.

 

[jellymax]

case by case basis. for example, if anyone is using the iem's that seal in your ear canal, then, in my experience you'll need everything properly
miked, even if they are not in the front of house mix. recently, this happened where the guitar and bass were too loud and were miked only
for iem purpose.

 

[Wasnex]

It depends on how picky you are. You could put up some area mics. I don't think I would be happy with the results, but there are other people who think it's fine. Results could vary depending on the acoustic environments, your skill/knowledge, and the quality of the mics.

There are IEMs that either passively allow sound in, or have built in mics.

What is the Ambient Option and Do I Need it?

UE Pro's ambient port lets you hear the room without removing an in-ear monitor — and protects your hearing in ways that going one-ear-in can't.

pro.ultimateears.com

I believe @s0c9 uses high-end IEMs with an ambient option.

 

[Wasnex]

I think you would get a lot better results by putting up three mics. A relatively close mic on each guitar amp and one area mic for drums.

 

[s0c9]

It depends on how picky you are. You could put up some area mics. I don't think I would be happy with the results, but there are other people who think it's fine. Results could vary depending on the acoustic environments, your skill/knowledge, and the quality of the mics.

There are IEMs that either passively allow sound in, or have built in mics.

What is the Ambient Option and Do I Need it?

UE Pro's ambient port lets you hear the room without removing an in-ear monitor — and protects your hearing in ways that going one-ear-in can't.

pro.ultimateears.com

I believe @s0c9 uses high-end IEMs with an ambient option.

I have 64Audio A8’s with the ADEL ports (now labeled APEX after their contract dispute with the creators - ASIUS) that provide tons of bass. Yes, the ports are designed to reduce ear fatigue by equalizing the pressure between the environment and IEM audio and act a bit like ambient ports, which allow one to hear stage noise. The modules are available in a variety dB reduction “sizes”. -26, -20, -15 and -12dB. I used the default -26dB modules for years and bought a -15dB set when they went on sale (50% off) last year. I can hear people on stage quite clearly when no music is playing.

Yes, some of the 6 bands I subbed with last year use talk-back mics but ALL are 100% IEM. NONE use ambient stage mics.
The tribute band makes extensive use of tracks, cues and a click track (as does church). The rest had no tracks, a click or nothing.
Those bands played everything from local festivals to American Legion and VFW halls, to sports bars, BBQ joints and even BIlly Bobs TX or Southern Junction opening for national/regional Country acts. My A8’s were used on all of them.
As with all things live audio, YMMV.

Oh, and EVERYTHING is mic’d and goes into the bands IEM mixer. For House PA, splits to/from IEM mixer depending on venue.
It sounds complex, but once everyone is used to “jacking in” it’s a pretty quick sound check and simple hookup.
Control your own mix, pick what you want in it. Focus on playing!

 

[Mike Caldwell]

The lead guitar/singer who's actually my brother thinks it is all too technical and making too many problems with putting microphones on etc.
Even though he's younger than me seems to have his head stuck in the 70's (though he was born nearer the 90's) and I think is going deaf as in my opinion we were playing way too loud.

You got your work cut out for you to get your band to step up to 2025 band tech!!!
I know he's your brother but his head may stuck somewhere other the in the 70''s

 

[DWBass]

What's the point of using IEM's if everyone is not on board?? The entire effort is to lower or minimize stage volume.

 

[mizzle]

Thanks again to everyone, I think my brother's amp/pedal (BluGuitar) has a line out so I might be able to take a feed from that.

The other has a normal combo so I'd probably need to go with a 57 or something like that unless the sansamp (guitar one) he's borrowing has an out?

I agree it's not ideal to be blasting everything out, I'm slowly trying to convince them to get more though the PA so it can be more controlled but having feedback issues and monitoring issues with vocals etc so they are not too keen as of yet.

The drummer at least wants to do iem as myself too just got to get it setup properly.

 

[Jack]

Thanks again to everyone, I think my brother's amp/pedal (BluGuitar) has a line out so I might be able to take a feed from that.

The other has a normal combo so I'd probably need to go with a 57 or something like that unless the sansamp (guitar one) he's borrowing has an out?

I agree it's not ideal to be blasting everything out, I'm slowly trying to convince them to get more though the PA so it can be more controlled but having feedback issues and monitoring issues with vocals etc so they are not too keen as of yet.

The drummer at least wants to do iem as myself too just got to get it setup properly.

Which combo? You could maybe use the effects loop and plug the effects send right into the desk? Yes, it should be balanced and you will have more hf than you're used to if there's no speaker sim, but this is just for your IEMs so any potential imperfections wouldn't be the end of the world. The effects loop into the above-mentioned RedBox would be great.

The other option: do you have a spare effects slot on the mixer that you're not using? If so, you can take a line out of the guitar from anywhere and take that into the desk, then insert the sansamp effect into that channel. Instant rock guitar tone in your ears. I don't know where you are or what gear you have, but I have several of the Thomann own brand DI boxes. They were about £8 each IIRC. Honestly they sound great and I would use them for anything, but they would certainly be fine for your use. Tap a guitar signal at the end of the board and then into the desk.

 

[tshapiro]

Sometimes when I sit in with other bands, I’ll bring a small mixer where I run a direct line for my bass, 1 mic somewhere on the stage for reference, and if I’m lucky to get a feed from board I ask for only vocals which I also use for reference. Seeing that I can blend the 3 inputs myself I usually don’t have any issue having something serviceable. If I can’t get that vocal feed, i usually put the mic near the stage monitor if there is one. Also, if there are powered monitors, you can usually tap into a Direct out from the monitor and run it to one of your personal mixer inputs. Another variation is that if said stage monitor is run by a Soundman, you can often ask for whatever you want in it and then tap it to run to your personal monitor.

Bottom line is there a number of options available for sources into your in ears even if the band isn’t mic’ing things up.

 

[Bonecat]

Like others here, we experimented with several hybrid approaches before committing to everyone going to the mixer. As noted above, our guitarists were the holdouts. They eventually recognized that the minute nuances they were chasing with their amps rarely translate effectively to a live sound situation. They also discovered that modern amp sims, impulse responses, and modelers are really very good and offer options that their amps and aircraft carrier sized pedalboards can’t.

Apart from our drummer, who refuses to move to high quality e-drums, we run a silent stage. Everyone gets what they need through their IEMs. And we’re working on our drummer…

 

[pepj]

Met an old friend at a small festival.
We were running a Nexo P.A which probably wasn't quite man enough for the job or the rig had 'new' amps and soundman wasn't getting his usual levels into the P.A.
(solved it by pushing amps harder)
Anyway, we were concerned about sound, rather than mix, and said friend just happened to say we finally got it right... but also offered even though she wasn't a musician, she sees loads and loads of bands and she said every band she hears with sound issues were running self monitored In ears rigs.
They think the sounds into their ears mix is killing out front...and that is debatable re sound quality in itself, but they have no clue until someone comes up to them at the break and says they can't hear this or that.
And then they change it and have to ask the auduence again whether its fixed the problem.

Running an outfront soundman fixes the main problem of levels.
It will not fix the sound from 'modellers' though, so your great sound from the pedal board is very very hard to transfer up into basic local level P.A's. So much so, that even guys known for having great sounds with amps really struggle to transfer with Kemplers and the like.

I told one such friend, what happened to his sound..and he basically didn't want to hear it. He was convinced this light carry thing was the say to go. The proof was not in the pudding.

 

[el murdoque]

As it was suggested already, the best choice is to get everyone on IEMs, so they will start taking care of how their gear is mic'ed all by themselves.

The aforementioned H&K Redbox is a good way to create reliable sounds that are not dependent on mic type and mic placement, so when the amp is set in the same way, your guitar mix should sound the same every time you play.

I have ambient mics on my IEMs, the InEar Hearmix Pro system, but that's an expensive solution.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Met an old friend at a small festival.
We were running a Nexo P.A which probably wasn't quite man enough for the job or the rig had 'new' amps and soundman wasn't getting his usual levels into the P.A.
(solved it by pushing amps harder)
Anyway, we were concerned about sound, rather than mix, and said friend just happened to say we finally got it right... but also offered even though she wasn't a musician, she sees loads and loads of bands and she said every band she hears with sound issues were running self monitored In ears rigs.
They think the sounds into their ears mix is killing out front...and that is debatable re sound quality in itself, but they have no clue until someone comes up to them at the break and says they can't hear this or that.
And then they change it and have to ask the auduence again whether its fixed the problem.

Running an outfront soundman fixes the main problem of levels.
It will not fix the sound from 'modellers' though, so your great sound from the pedal board is very very hard to transfer up into basic local level P.A's. So much so, that even guys known for having great sounds with amps really struggle to transfer with Kemplers and the like.

I told one such friend, what happened to his sound..and he basically didn't want to hear it. He was convinced this light carry thing was the say to go. The proof was not in the pudding.

A lot of the "sound" depends on what they used as a reference speaker when dialing in "their sound" . Using ear bud as the reference may not be the best idea, using a PA speaker would be better. Eq'ing the in ear mix then to sound like they want after the modeler has been dialed in.