IEM's vs the Back Line, my $0.019

[Joe Nerve]

Interesting.

Didn't have time to read the entire thread, BUT, my new band is wrestling right now with the in-between phase. And I'm determined to find a middle ground, or upgrade my IEMs. I'm using crap ones they gave me, and I'm reluctant to drop any cash on more expensive ones. I'm not completely sold on the IEM thing yet, and I won't be using them with any band other than this one. Considering we play 8 to 12 shows a month I may have to start accepting the reality though that there aren't going to be many performances any more with any other bands.

Anyhow, before I got into the band they made the complete transition. They reeled it in for me to get used to the IEMs, and it's causing all kinds of crap for everyone now.

There is something important you left out in your OP though, and something that my band realized not too long ago that's making them want to work more at a 50/50 thing. The way most houses are set up, when we go all IEM people right up against the stage (and everyone around it) hears nothing but drums. A loud rock band just doesn't cut it going IEM only. Weddings, it works fine. R&R gigs, sorry... but no dice.

I'm still not an IEM fan, but I'm working at it. I really think I have to just upgrade my IEMs. Originally the band said they'd spring for them. When I acted as though I adjusted quickly they seem to not be so quick to throw that money my way. I know they've been making a lot of other recent investments though, and I get paid and treated very well so I might have to move forward on my own.

Looking forward to reading the rest of this thread.

 

[EastCoastThump]

There is something important you left out...The way most houses are set up, when we go all IEM people right up against the stage (and everyone around it) hears nothing but drums. A loud rock band just doesn't cut it going IEM only. Weddings, it works fine. R&R gigs, sorry... but no dice.

You can fix this problem with one or more front-fill speakers.

 

[monkeyland]

Furthermore, I now have to deal with the "sound guy" thing at EVERY gig. Yes, I know, no slagging sound guys. But, here is the deal: we did rehearsal listening to the FOH the other night to shake out that part of things. Good thing that we did. Our vocalist is our "sound guy." I think he reads a lot in the various FOH forums. Anyhow, for the third time, I had to get him to remove the HPF set at 100 Hz on the bass send to the towers. He is absolutely determined that the subs should cover the bass up to 100Hz. Of course, that sounds like poo for bass, as we have all discussed on here in various biamp discussions over the years. But, apparently the FOH folks are still sorting this out. Dropping the bass HPF to the towers to 40Hz and providing just a tad of reinforcement with the bins was sauce. But, since that's the third time I've had to make that particular correction, I feel like I'm fighting the city hall. Patience and persistence on that one. Theory guides, experiment decides. Anyhow, this is just an isolated "sound guy" thing; and I've already made too much out of it.

As you said this is a separate conversation, and probably deserves it's own thread. With that said I would suggest that maybe the way you are sending things to tops and subs, or maybe the method of crossover is to blame here, or you just don't have enough sub to properly work with the tops. On my system, I would not resort to going so low in the tops, although I do prefer them to go down to 80 or so, assuming their quality is up to it. In the end it's all about the sound but you may be creating low mid mud by allowing overlap between the sub and top.

 

[monkeyland]

Interesting.

Didn't have time to read the entire thread, BUT, my new band is wrestling right now with the in-between phase. And I'm determined to find a middle ground, or upgrade my IEMs. I'm using crap ones they gave me, and I'm reluctant to drop any cash on more expensive ones. I'm not completely sold on the IEM thing yet, and I won't be using them with any band other than this one. Considering we play 8 to 12 shows a month I may have to start accepting the reality though that there aren't going to be many performances any more with any other bands.

I will say that once I got my customs it was very eye opening. Sure they sound great(really, really great). The thing people don't always talk about is comfort. I now spend a lot less time fidgeting with getting a good seal, or that weird itchy sensation from the ear tips, or basically any physical distraction. Because of this I can focus a lot more attention on playing music.

Pretty much every custom in ear maker has a line that offers 2 or 3 drivers in the 500ish range.

 

[socialleper]

I like the idea of using IEMs so that way I can balance what I want to hear. Personally, I don't need much of the guitars or the vocals. I really just mostly need myself and the drums.
However, the costs and downsides are just too insurmountable. Just getting a proper ear mold and decent quality earphones are cost prohibitive for me. Then you usually need a wireless system, which I have no interest in dealing with. Then lastly, you need there to be a FOH (not all my gigs have fancy things like full PAs) and a sound guy you trust to give you a good mix while not blowing out your ears. If I was a famous musician playing reliable venues then I would think about it. This just doesn't work for what I'm doing.
Instead, I focused on light amps and light class D heads.

 

[monkeyland]

I started down the in ear road sometime back in the fall. I've played with and without backline in that time. Most of the time I'm the only one in the group using in ears and a lot of the time the gigs are small enough where there is only one monitor mix for the whole band, basically just vocals and acoustic guitar.

In those situations I have to have my amp going on stage, and it is typically carrying the whole house. At first, before I got my customs, I would not use the ears on those gigs, instead opting for ear plugs. These are typically small, higher end bar/lounge situations, but for a big stretch of this season I played 4 nights in a row in the same room. I've measured the stage volume at these gigs at 90db A weighted, which isn't much but thats also pretty much the quietest gig that I play. Not to mention that with drums 2 feet to my left means that I want to be protected.

At first I bought a Shure PSM300 kit and used a little sound craft analog mixer to feed it(I've since upgraded to an X32 rack). Due to the simplicity of the PA on most of these jobs, and the fact that I'm trying not to impose too much on the musicians that I play with I quickly took to bringing an assortment of cables, as well as a couple of mics to help get everything in my ears easily. I mic the Electric Guitar(which typically does not have one), and I put up a drum overhead and kick mic. I also take a line off of the PA so that I can get whatever vocals or acoustic instruments might be coming back into a stage wedge. It sounds like a lot of work but I'm actually able to get the volume to be the same, or lower, in my ears as it is when I use ear plugs, and the mix is very balanced and clear.

It is nice to run my stage amp just to get the feeling of it but I do like to go without when I can, as even with the isolation of the ears, the stage volume determines how loud my mix needs to be to a degree. I'm currently carrying a Mesa Subway DI that feeds the Ear rig and/or front of house PA. I use the "through" jack to go to my amp so that no EQ changes on the Subway DI effect my on stage sound. I'll play a song or two without my ears in just to make sure that the on stage level is balanced, although even before switching to ears I generally know when playing a little before the gig where the amp should be set.

 

[s0c9]

I like the idea of using IEMs so that way I can balance what I want to hear. Personally, I don't need much of the guitars or the vocals. I really just mostly need myself and the drums.
However, the costs and downsides are just too insurmountable. Just getting a proper ear mold and decent quality earphones are cost prohibitive for me. Then you usually need a wireless system, which I have no interest in dealing with. Then lastly, you need there to be a FOH (not all my gigs have fancy things like full PAs) and a sound guy you trust to give you a good mix while not blowing out your ears. If I was a famous musician playing reliable venues then I would think about it. This just doesn't work for what I'm doing.
Instead, I focused on light amps and light class D heads.

To be sure, there is an expense associated with going IEM, but like digital consoles, the price for working bands has REALLY, REALLY dropped in the last few yrs.
If you play once or twice a month, then yeah.. the expense probably isn't worth it, but if like @Joe Nerve (and I for the last 3 yrs ) you are in a top local or regional band and doing 8+ gigs a month, it's not even a no brainer. It's a MUST HAVE! Your EARS will thank you.. I can't imagine doing 80 gigs a year on wedges...

We get around the FOH challenges by taking them out of the equation, so FOH can do their thing and we ALWAYS mix our own IEMS.

We have an IEM rack that goes to EVERY gig... it contains:

• X32 Rack
• Senn G3 wireless transmitters
• Behringer S16
• 16-channel snake splitter - 1 leg permanently connected to the X32.
• Dual band router (Archer C7)

Everything (mics, DI's, etc) goes direct to the splitter box with one leg going to X32 rack. The X32 is hardwired into the router. Our IEM mix seldom varies and we control them remotely (5Ghz) using tablets or phones. The other snake leg normally goes to FOH.

However, when WE provide FOH, or the venue needs an L/R feed to their PA system (surprising how many have house PA for DJ but no FOH mix capability), the other leg goes to an X32 producer (also connected to the router so we can remotely run FOH) and L/R out goes to our powered EV PA or to the house.
The downside (for some) is that you always has to mic everything.. but when you do that for every gig you get used to it.
It's modular.. and it works VERY well !!

Each member owns their own wireless IEM system (Senn G3) and buds. We all use custom buds from 1964 and Ultimate Ears. My mix is awesome..
And my hearing thanks me !!

 

[bucephylus]

Interesting.

There is something important you left out in your OP though, and something that my band realized not too long ago that's making them want to work more at a 50/50 thing. The way most houses are set up, when we go all IEM people right up against the stage (and everyone around it) hears nothing but drums. A loud rock band just doesn't cut it going IEM only. Weddings, it works fine. R&R gigs, sorry... but no dice.

You are correct; I did leave that out.

Most of our gigs are sports bar type roadhouses. We've been setting the mains up pigeon toe to fill the dance floor right in front of the stage. By all accounts, that seems to be ok.

I also did not mention what we are using for mains. We've got the QSC 153i towers sitting on JBL subs. An earlier post questioned sending the full range signal to the towers; but, I'm reasonably sure from prior experience that the 153i's will take anything you can throw at them.

Some of the clubs have decibel meter readouts right on stage. We generally are around 100db to 104db. The club owners start getting cranky if you go much above that.

 

[s0c9]

Some of the clubs have decibel meter readouts right on stage. We generally are around 100db to 104db. The club owners start getting cranky if you go much above that.

ALL of ours have meters and they measure it.. We're a country dance band, but even so.. the house can get pretty loud, but THEY control that.
Our PA - used for maybe 5% of our gigs - is almost 6000w (two 1500w tops and two 1300w subs, all EV) and we keep it reasonable.

 

[hopwheels]

So, it's a mixed bag, with a lot of pluses. But NOT R&R.

Really couldn't agree more! Our band recently switched to IEMs for rehearsals with the idea of better vocal harmonizing, dynamics and saving our hearing...but...we lost something almost immediately. And it's hard to put a finger on it, but the idea that it's 'NOT R&R,' comes as close as anything. I like when you feel the music out in the air and listen to it interact with everything...the other musicians, the space, etc. Good, bad or otherwise. We haven't fixed it either as we now go back and forth between rehearsing with IEMs and without. Best anecdotal evidence for no IEMs for us is...we cannot free jam with them. For some reason we need that out in the air still.

 

[bucephylus]

To be sure, there is an expense associated with going IEM, but like digital consoles, the price for working bands has REALLY, REALLY dropped in the last few yrs.

I suppose there are several ways of looking at the cost issue. Decent buds and a wireless transmitter / receiver aren't completely cheap; but, they are a whole lot less expensive than a quality amp rig. Of course, it isn't entirely an either / or, since most players will need the amp for other reasons.

 

[s0c9]

I suppose there are several ways of looking at the cost issue. Decent buds and a wireless transmitter / receiver aren't completely cheap; but, they are a whole lot less expensive than a quality amp rig. Of course, it isn't entirely an either / or, since most players will need the amp for other reasons.

Agreed.. it's totally up to the musician to determine their ROI. But even if you're already hearing-impaired from 20 yrs of loud music.. it will STILL help
As I mentioned above.. if you're gigging 6-8 times a YEAR (vs 6+ month) your exposure isn't that bad, and the ROI is probably not good for you.
I couldn't handle doing the 76 gigs I played in 2016 using a wedge.
I would buy my Senn G3 wireless and 1964 A8's buds versus that .. anytime.
YMMV

 

[bucephylus]

Really couldn't agree more! Our band recently switched to IEMs for rehearsals with the idea of better vocal harmonizing, dynamics and saving our hearing...but...we lost something almost immediately. And it's hard to put a finger on it, but the idea that it's 'NOT R&R,' comes as close as anything. I like when you feel the music out in the air and listen to it interact with everything...the other musicians, the space, etc. Good, bad or otherwise. We haven't fixed it either as we now go back and forth between rehearsing with IEMs and without. Best anecdotal evidence for no IEMs for us is...we cannot free jam with them. For some reason we need that out in the air still.

That's kind of what I was getting at. The IEM system is SO good that it feels more like the studio than live to me. Could be just a state of mind, and as you say, I can't quite put my finger on it. No slag on the IEM system for sure. If anything, they are maybe too good.

Also, I'm still getting used to the fact that practically my only volume control for my level is strictly for my own mix. That's weird from a live perspective for me as well.

 

[bucephylus]

Agreed.. it's totally up to the musician to determine their ROI. But even if you're already hearing-impaired from 20 yrs of loud music.. it will STILL help
As I mentioned above.. if you're gigging 6-8 times a YEAR (vs 6+ month) your exposure isn't that bad, and the ROI is probably not good for you.
I couldn't handle doing the 76 gigs I played in 2016 using a wedge - and I have a full time job OTOT!!
YMMV

I could see that. I've somehow gotten through nearly 5 decades without measureable hearing loss. But, I also started using high quality ear protection way back before it was fashionable. But, I completely agree with this aspect being a complete win with the IEM technology.

 

[monkeyland]

Agreed.. it's totally up to the musician to determine their ROI. But even if you're already hearing-impaired from 20 yrs of loud music.. it will STILL help
As I mentioned above.. if you're gigging 6-8 times a YEAR (vs 6+ month) your exposure isn't that bad, and the ROI is probably not good for you.
I couldn't handle doing the 76 gigs I played in 2016 using a wedge.
I would buy my Senn G3 wireless and 1964 A8's buds versus that .. anytime.
YMMV

Oh man I just counted it up. 120 gigs since October, our busy season runs November to May. There were a couple of gigs back at the beginning of that month where I was experiencing ear pain the next day, even with ear plugs, that made me say there must be a better way.

I have chronic tinnitus and I intend to not let it get any worse.

 

[s0c9]

That's kind of what I was getting at. The IEM system is SO good that it feels more like the studio than live to me. Could be just a state of mind, and as you say, I can't quite put my finger on it. No slag on the IEM system for sure. If anything, they are maybe too good.

+1000%

 

[s0c9]

Oh man I just counted it up. 120 gigs since October, our busy season runs November to May.

Dang, I thought I WAS a busy little weekend warrior the last 4 yrs (300 gigs), but that count leaves me in the dust! Is that your full-time job or?

 

[monkeyland]

Dang, I thought I WAS a busy little weekend warrior the last 4 yrs (300 gigs), but that count leaves me in the dust! Is that your full-time job or?

I do not have a day job, kind of. I run an event production company and I'm also on staff at a local church overseeing their sound/AV. So I basically make my whole living in the entertainment business and the technology that surrounds it. There is a local restaurant that does music 7 nights a week and I've been playing there for about 6 years. I do a lot of weeknight gigs there. Monday/Tuesday all season and then Monday - Thursday for the last month and a half or so(another bass player got let go and I got the call). It's convenient because it leaves the weekend available for events and responsibilities at the church.

To be fair, this is the first season that I've done that many bass gigs.

 

[socialleper]

It's a MUST HAVE! Your EARS will thank you.. I can't imagine doing 80 gigs a year on wedges...

I've worn ear plugs to every show and practice since I was about 17. I don't mess with that.
I've found that wedge monitors are useless for bass. (Assuming there are wedges.) My rig in my monitor. I follow the drummer, listen with my feet, and play to the memorized version of the song playing in my head. A little muscle memory helps too.
In an optimal world, I'd have a little mixing board I can set myself for some IEMs, but that is as unrealistic as using wireless for me. Too much gear, too much fuss, too much money.

 

[monkeyland]

I've worn ear plugs to every show and practice since I was about 17. I don't mess with that.
I've found that wedge monitors are useless for bass. (Assuming there are wedges.) My rig in my monitor. I follow the drummer, listen with my feet, and play to the memorized version of the song playing in my head. A little muscle memory helps too.
In an optimal world, I'd have a little mixing board I can set myself for some IEMs, but that is as unrealistic as using wireless for me. Too much gear, too much fuss, too much money.

I totally get why some people feel that it's too much effort. And I think that mindset changes depending on your situation. As an event production guy I would say that as with most things, organization is the key. I can have my personal mixer set up in about 10 minutes. Tear down is the same.

Good on you for the ear plugs. I wish I would have done that earlier. I spent too long working construction and playing in original bands with big amps and the ringing has been constant for almost 10 years.