IEM's vs the Back Line, my $0.019

[T Bassman]

My current main gig has shifted to an all IEM, no back line arrangement about a year ago; and now that we have been working with the "new" technology a while, I have the following somewhat random thoughts.

First of all, the IEM technology really is quite amazing, and definitely provides the best monitoring environment for vocal harmonizing possible. Big plus, since that is what 95% of folks in the clubs are listening to.

We started off using some elements of the back line, but have now phased them out altogether. My impression is that you either play with a back line or don't. Kind of like playing tennis, where you are either at the base line or the net, but never in the middle.

Here is what I perfectly detest about this method of gigging. It AIN'T Rock n Roll. At all. R&R flat out requires that big bad boy bass rig on the back line; and to me, here is the key element: the player has the power and control over the situation. Before you start slagging me about live performance, I get the whole mix presentation FOH etc etc thing. Been doing it for years. Definitely no other way to do it in large venues. I accept reality. The IEM approach without any question is the best technical solution for large venues. But, it tosses the baby out with the bath water for R&R.

Also, I now have an absolutely perfect mix in my ears, which mix I have full control over. It is pristine. It is my mix. But, there is NO pants flapping going on. This may be a bit off target; but, there just seems to be a big loss in my perceived dynamics between the back line and the IEM's. Nope, not R&R. Very musical. Very correct. NOT R&R. YMMV, but, that's my impression one year in.

Furthermore, I now have to deal with the "sound guy" thing at EVERY gig. Yes, I know, no slagging sound guys. But, here is the deal: we did rehearsal listening to the FOH the other night to shake out that part of things. Good thing that we did. Our vocalist is our "sound guy." I think he reads a lot in the various FOH forums. Anyhow, for the third time, I had to get him to remove the HPF set at 100 Hz on the bass send to the towers. He is absolutely determined that the subs should cover the bass up to 100Hz. Of course, that sounds like poo for bass, as we have all discussed on here in various biamp discussions over the years. But, apparently the FOH folks are still sorting this out. Dropping the bass HPF to the towers to 40Hz and providing just a tad of reinforcement with the bins was sauce. But, since that's the third time I've had to make that particular correction, I feel like I'm fighting the city hall. Patience and persistence on that one. Theory guides, experiment decides. Anyhow, this is just an isolated "sound guy" thing; and I've already made too much out of it.

Another huge plus for the IEM system is that I can pretty much take everything I need to the gig in my gig bag. Strap, cable, tuner and decent preamp/DI, and ears in the gig bag (or little camera case I'm using); and that's good to go. Amazing.

So, it's a mixed bag, with a lot of pluses. But NOT R&R.

Totally in point man. This has been my experience as well, especially coming from a rock background. Its weird not 'feeling' air movement of cabs onstage sometimes. Something visceral is lost there. As you said, the new technology available has many benefits however that in many instances outweigh the backline approach to shows.

 

[Scottkarch]

My band has moved from wedges with one shared aux mix and acoustic drums to electronic drums, 1/2 guitars amoless, bass ampless, and 3/4 of us using IEMs with individual mixes.

We use the same setup at rehearsal as live, setup takes only a couple minutes and everything sounds just like it did at rehearsal. No struggling with Monitir mixes. I've gone from wireless to wired IEMs since I'm often wired with my bass anyway, that will save you hundreds when getting started.

One guitar player really prefers no earbuds live to get the Live feel. I'm trying to get him to buy better earbuds and may try an audience mic in his IEM mix for ambience.

Our friends and Audience say that we sound better than ever and I think a lot of that is due to electronic drums not driving stage volume only one amp sound guy doesn't have control over and the IEMs really helping us hear great for our vocals/harmonies.

For me my IEMs also allow me to hear my mistakes more quickly and fix them than on a large stage. You all may not Make mistakes but I still hit a couple each night.

Lastly, getting ready to drop $$ on custom fit but keep trying inexpensive alternatives. Mee audio m6 pro is pretty darn good if you can get tips that make a great deal. About $40. I am floored at the bass response of the $20 KZ ZST earbuds. Detachable cords and I think they sound as good as anything up to the $100 level. I highly recommend picking up a pair at least as a backup set or try them as mains. You may be surprised.

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

My band has moved from wedges with one shared aux mix and acoustic drums to electronic drums, 1/2 guitars amoless, bass ampless, and 3/4 of us using IEMs with individual mixes.

We use the same setup at rehearsal as live, setup takes only a couple minutes and everything sounds just like it did at rehearsal. No struggling with Monitir mixes. I've gone from wireless to wired IEMs since I'm often wired with my bass anyway, that will save you hundreds when getting started.

One guitar player really prefers no earbuds live to get the Live feel. I'm trying to get him to buy better earbuds and may try an audience mic in his IEM mix for ambience.

Our friends and Audience say that we sound better than ever and I think a lot of that is due to electronic drums not driving stage volume only one amp sound guy doesn't have control over and the IEMs really helping us hear great for our vocals/harmonies.

For me my IEMs also allow me to hear my mistakes more quickly and fix them than on a large stage. You all may not Make mistakes but I still hit a couple each night.

Lastly, getting ready to drop $$ on custom fit but keep trying inexpensive alternatives. Mee audio m6 pro is pretty darn good if you can get tips that make a great deal. About $40. I am floored at the bass response of the $20 KZ ZST earbuds. Detachable cords and I think they sound as good as anything up to the $100 level. I highly recommend picking up a pair at least as a backup set or try them as mains. You may be surprised.

Our Praise and Worship band is moving to IEM's so I did my research and bought a pair of MEE Audio M6 Pro's. Really nice monitors...a bit shrill, but nice....then my fellow P & W lowender Kamikaze3955 walks into my restaurant with a pair of KZ ZST's. I take 'em home, plug 'em in, and WITHOUT ANY BURN-IN, blew me away in sub bass response! Hybrid drivers, dual pin connectors, funky colors, <$20....seriously, go buy some.

 

[Scottkarch]

Our Praise and Worship band is moving to IEM's so I did my research and bought a pair of MEE Audio M6 Pro's. Really nice monitors...a bit shrill, but nice....then my fellow P & W lowender Kamikaze3955 walks into my restaurant with a pair of KZ ZST's. I take 'em home, plug 'em in, and WITHOUT ANY BURN-IN, blew me away in sub bass response! Hybrid drivers, dual pin connectors, funky colors, <$20....seriously, go buy some.

Very interesting, thanks. It's interesting you had the near exact experience I did. I expected the MEE audio ones to be better, but I can't EQ out the little bit of shrillness, and since the ZSTs sound so good I'll just stick with them for now. I do want to experiment with slightly longer tips than the comply ones... or I may use some tubing to make the zst connector a few mm longer to go a little deeper in my ears. Some day I'll probably pony up to get custom moldeds, but for now the ZSTs are my earbuds of choice. thanks for the note.

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

Very interesting, thanks. It's interesting you had the near exact experience I did. I expected the MEE audio ones to be better, but I can't EQ out the little bit of shrillness, and since the ZSTs sound so good I'll just stick with them for now. I do want to experiment with slightly longer tips than the comply ones... or I may use some tubing to make the zst connector a few mm longer to go a little deeper in my ears. Some day I'll probably pony up to get custom moldeds, but for now the ZSTs are my earbuds of choice. thanks for the note.

It's all good! There are several of us TB'ers that share this experience and I'm just passing it along.
I like the silicon tips best since I can't get the Comply's to fully mold to my ear canal for some reason, but do what works for you.

 

[Yemhek]

I sing, too. And this is weird, but -- with just one heavy-duty industrial ear plug in (left or right, depending on where I'm situated relative to drum kit and guitar amp), I find that I sing better. Not the same as a good foldback monitor mix on IERs, but at least I can hear/sense my voice better...through my sinus cavities and skull.

This is almost certainly why vocalists stick a finger in one ear while they are recording lead vocals in the studio, or still trying on new material or a new configuration of harmonies live, yeah?

 

[bucephylus]

Just thought I would circle back and give a progress update.

The band has hired a dedicated sound person, and that seems to be a step in the right direction.

We also just started recording our FOH delivery, so that we can critique the mix. Very instructive. And, unfortunately, we are getting about what I expected; but, at least we are analyzing and discussing.

What did I expect? Way too much rhythm guitar in the mix. And, that's what we are getting. Bass, snare, and even lead vocals are getting buried by guitar wash. But, the cats are being pretty good about it. We all listened critically at last rehearsal; and I just asked them, "What is the band's mix objective? Do we mix so that everyone can be heard at all times or do we mix to target the studio recording we are covering?"

I mean the way I see it, one should at least produce what is intended vs whatever happens by default. Right now, the sound guy is trying to make everyone in the band, which includes three guitar players, heard at all times. But, while listening, we sequentially played our live recording mix vs the studio reference; and the difference in mix hierarchy was instantly apparent. Not nearly enough bass or snare, and lead vocals actually struggling to pop in the mix. Not good, right? But, you could clearly hear all those guitars. Guess it depends what you want. Anyhow, this seems headed in the right direction. We will continue recording and critiquing FOH; and I think that's just about the only way to get there.

Meanwhile, I am blithely playing with my own mix, which sounds amazing. Two completely different worlds going on.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I mean the way I see it, one should at least produce what is intended vs whatever happens by default. Right now, the sound guy is trying to make everyone in the band, which includes three guitar players, heard at all times. But, while listening, we sequentially played our live recording mix vs the studio reference; and the difference in mix hierarchy was instantly apparent. Not nearly enough bass or snare, and lead vocals actually struggling to pop in the mix. Not good, right? But, you could clearly hear all those guitars.

Have you started to use your own recorded and mixed tracks to dial in a starting-point live mix? Play a reference track in the IEM mix, looping a chorus or verse; the track should have the same instrumentation as your band, be in the genre, and have the kind of sound you're after. (This reference cut can be either a studio track or a live cut, depending on the sort of sound and mix you're after.) Then, one at a time, have your bandmates play along to the reference, and match their individual volumes to that instrument in the reference track.

If everyone has their tones dialed in, when you stop the reference track and all play together the band mix will be solid.

 

[bucephylus]

Have you started to use your own recorded and mixed tracks to dial in a starting-point live mix? Play a reference track in the IEM mix, looping a chorus or verse; the track should have the same instrumentation as your band, be in the genre, and have the kind of sound you're after. (This reference cut can be either a studio track or a live cut, depending on the sort of sound and mix you're after.) Then, one at a time, have your bandmates play along to the reference, and match their individual volumes to that instrument in the reference track.

If everyone has their tones dialed in, when you stop the reference track and all play together the band mix will be solid.

Sorry, not understanding your point.

We all have our own custom tailored IEM mixes that we each control with the phone. Those are outstanding, and not an issue. They are particularly great for hearing vocals clearly.

I am talking about the FOH mix, which bears zero resemblance to IEM, and is 100% controlled by the sound guy. What we are going through is an educational process for that person, by which he has to learn to put aside his prejudices about how a mix should be constructed and learn to first hear the reference mix(we are a cover band) and then mix with the reference as an objective target. It actually takes conscious effort to put aside your prejudices as to what you hear in the mix of a popular tune, and hear what is actually there as opposed to what you perceived during subjective listening. If that makes sense. In other words, rhythm guitars don't actually drive a very effective groove for brick house. Surprise surprise; but you would be surprised how many people THINK the rhythm guitars are the focal point.

We tend to hear what we think is there rather than what is actually there. Takes discipline to get it right.

 

[craigie]

Sorry, not understanding your point.

We all have our own custom tailored IEM mixes that we each control with the phone. Those are outstanding, and not an issue. They are particularly great for hearing vocals clearly.

I am talking about the FOH mix, which bears zero resemblance to IEM, and is 100% controlled by the sound guy. What we are going through is an educational process for that person, by which he has to learn to put aside his prejudices about how a mix should be constructed and learn to first hear the reference mix(we are a cover band) and then mix with the reference as an objective target. It actually takes conscious effort to put aside your prejudices as to what you hear in the mix of a popular tune, and hear what is actually there as opposed to what you perceived during subjective listening. If that makes sense. In other words, rhythm guitars don't actually drive a very effective groove for brick house. Surprise surprise; but you would be surprised how many people THINK the rhythm guitars are the focal point.

We tend to hear what we think is there rather than what is actually there. Takes discipline to get it right.

Thanks for getting update posts. I'm curious if you're recording directly from the board or using mics out front and what the difference might be due to room acoustics and stage wash.

I saw a great video tutorial on mixing / EQ'ing and it was fantastic how they made each instrument pop with slight tweaks in panning and EQ. I'm not sure how you achieve the panning live as from what I understand it's best to use a mono mix due to uneven dispersion around the room.

Three guitars must certainly be tricky. From what I've noticed on Motown or wrecking crew recordings where they may have multiple guitars is the guitars tend to play parts that are in different registers and use different rhythms. They also tend to be a bit thin and twangy by themselves (not what guitarists would necessarily want) unless it's for effect like doubling the bass line on say "sloop John B".
So trying to balance by volume alone won't work as well (not to say that's what's going on with you guys). Just my opinion which isn't based on any actual personal experience mixing three guitars lol.

 

[craigie]

I sing, too. And this is weird, but -- with just one heavy-duty industrial ear plug in (left or right, depending on where I'm situated relative to drum kit and guitar amp), I find that I sing better. Not the same as a good foldback monitor mix on IERs, but at least I can hear/sense my voice better...through my sinus cavities and skull.

This is almost certainly why vocalists stick a finger in one ear while they are recording lead vocals in the studio, or still trying on new material or a new configuration of harmonies live, yeah?

I suppose having one ear open allows you to use it for vocal mix balance. I find with earplugs I can hear my own voice in my head well by not how it mixes as well. That's one challenge of using IEM'S for me and getting a good mix with correct vocal levels.

 

[bucephylus]

Thanks for getting update posts. I'm curious if you're recording directly from the board or using mics out front and what the difference might be due to room acoustics and stage wash.

I saw a great video tutorial on mixing / EQ'ing and it was fantastic how they made each instrument pop with slight tweaks in panning and EQ. I'm not sure how you achieve the panning live as from what I understand it's best to use a mono mix due to uneven dispersion around the room.

Three guitars must certainly be tricky. From what I've noticed on Motown or wrecking crew recordings where they may have multiple guitars is the guitars tend to play parts that are in different registers and use different rhythms. They also tend to be a bit thin and twangy by themselves (not what guitarists would necessarily want) unless it's for effect like doubling the bass line on say "sloop John B".
So trying to balance by volume alone won't work as well (not to say that's what's going on with you guys). Just my opinion which isn't based on any actual personal experience mixing three guitars lol.

We are using a Zoom recorder out front. Only way to get an actual read. Direct from the board is less informative, for the reason no you mentioned.

Agree on the other points as well. Mixing is definitely different than listening.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Sorry, not understanding your point. We all have our own custom tailored IEM mixes that we each control with the phone. Those are outstanding, and not an issue. They are particularly great for hearing vocals clearly...I am talking about the FOH mix, which bears zero resemblance to IEM, and is 100% controlled by the sound guy. ...Takes discipline to get it right.

Right, I got the impression that the FOH SE is your guy (as opposed to a different house SE every night), no? What I'm suggesting is for training the band's SE—or any new musician who is having trouble hearing how the ensemble blend should sound.

Assuming the players have their tones right and can hear where they should slot into the mix, then to train the FOH guy just put everyone (including SE) on the same IEM mix, and have the SE slot each instrument in one at a time against the reference mix. When you mute the reference track, the SE hears what you all are hearing when you have the mix in the ballpark. Even the first time through, a five piece band can do this in five minutes. (We just went though it last week to work in a new keyboard player who had it in his head that every song should be extremely keyboard-forward.)

 

[bucephylus]

Right, I got the impression that the FOH SE is your guy (as opposed to a different house SE every night), no? What I'm suggesting is for training the band's SE—or any new musician who is having trouble hearing how the ensemble blend should sound.

Assuming the players have their tones right and can hear where they should slot into the mix, then to train the FOH guy just put everyone (including SE) on the same IEM mix, and have the SE slot each instrument in one at a time against the reference mix. When you mute the reference track, the SE hears what you all are hearing when you have the mix in the ballpark. Even the first time through, a five piece band can do this in five minutes. (We just went though it last week to work in a new keyboard player who had it in his head that every song should be extremely keyboard-forward.)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to see where this goes for the next gig.

Another exercise might be to have the SE mix a recording, then review that vs the original. That would also be pretty quick. I get your point; but, part of the problem is the mix needs to change, depending on tune and genre.

At the end of the day, it's the same problem for the SE that the rest of us have. Knowing a lot of tunes.