IEMs vs. wedges

[steveksux]

There are some clubs too small to mic the drums, and those gigs tend to be tough for IEMs as a bass player, with the drums just bleeding through the IEMs. Hard to lock with the drummer when he's way in the background.

For those gigs, I've taken to putting a mic next to the kick drum under the snare/highhat. Run that into a mini mixer to add to the feed from the mains to give me back some drums in the mix.

That also picks up ambient sounds, can hear bandleader call out songs, crowd noise.

I do like that a lot, without any ambient sound, its very sterile sounding, very isolating. Sounds a lot more "normal" with that mic on than when the drums are mic'd through the mains and I'm only using foh mix in my ears.

So I'm a big fan of ambient mics now. Feels like a real gig again, only at a reasonable volume, with vocals clear and pronounced. So i guess it doesn't sound like a real gig at all then... But its pretty much perfect, feels/sounds like a real gig but without the shortcomings of live gig/wedges.

Randy

 

[steveksux]

I would have to disagree with you. I attended a pro audio seminar with a well-known audio engineer, and part of the topic was moving band members away from wedges to IEMs. He pointed out that part of the reason some people are uncomfortable with IEMs is the milliseconds' worth of delay that guitarists and vocalists (and some other musicians) are used to hearing from their rigs and monitors, and taught us how to compensate for it with a digital board by inserting 5ms (he advised 1 millisecond per foot they were usually away from their rig) or so delay in the guitar/vocalist/whomever IEM mix.

Interesting concept... The math works out, speed of sound is about 1100 ft/sec, so 1ms per foot is close enough. It could make a subconscious difference I suppose... I think the digital wireless units tend to introduce about 4 ms of delay, FYI, so that may explain why I don't feel uncomfortable with them, using the Line 6 X2 rackmount system. Still blows the theory that mixing wedges and IEMs lead to "non-tightness", IEMs would cause non-tightness all by themselves with that issue.

The small delay from a wedge a few feet away isn't noticeable musically, but apparently 1ms/ft is enough for some musicians to notice subconsciously; the response of their instrument or voice suddenly seems more immediate, and makes them uncomfortable even if they can't say why.

I'm more likely to attribute it to the feeling of isolation you mention the correction to here:

He also gave us great advice on how to set up communications via talkback mics on stage, so the feeling of isolation from each other and the audience was lessened. Great seminar.

But obviously that's just my opinion, can't rule either cause out. Could be a combination of the lack of delay and isolation that is the mood killer, and therefore the groove killer.

Feedback from the audience definitely provides energy the band can feed off of and amplify. Isolation can remove that, and stifle the groove.

Still not seeing how a mix of wedge/iem's is a problem. Both wedges and iems have strengths and weaknesses, but no reason they aren't compatible, or would cause problems having half the band on each.

Randy

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...I think the digital wireless units tend to introduce about 4 ms of delay, FYI, so that may explain why I don't feel uncomfortable with them, using the Line 6 X2 rackmount system. Still blows the theory that mixing wedges and IEMs lead to "non-tightness"...

I was going to mention this. If we're talking digital, wireless units are not going to be "quicker" than analogue audio. Depending on the unit, it's going to introduce a sampling/propogation delay that's going to be roughly on par with the delay introduced by the distance between a player and their monitor wedge.

Argument won, even if it doesn't solve the problem of the vocalist and guitarist rushing the beat...

 

[JKos]

As a counterpoint to purposefully adding delay, Bono's monitor system uses an analog mixing desk for vocals because he doesn't like the delay added by a digital board.

Very few in-ear systems are digital.

- John