If speaker cab manufacturers would only...

[JimChjones]

But that, doesn't tell us what the cabinet SOUNDS LIKE to our own individual ears.

This is the heart of it I think. When you are talking about sound reproduction, be it hi fi, PA, whatever, in theory at least the ideal is something that delivers to the audience exactly what's put into it, so you can look at a frequency response chart, and roughly speaking the closer it approximates to a level straight line the better, although there's probably a lot to say about the actual pattern of the lumps and bumps that's over my head.

But when it comes to electric instrument amplification that just isn't true. The last few years I've done a bit of home cab building with a bit more information and testing than I was able to do when I first built cabs forty years ago, and although I am no more than a kid splashing in the shallows of the subject, one thing I have learned is that I really don't know what an ideal frequency response curve for a bass cab looks like, but I know its not level. I fear I have enough ego to believe that if I don't understand something then lots and lots of other people don't understand it either. Mesa and all the other companies can present me with all the data needed to make an informed decision, but they can't give me the expertise to understand it.

So does that mean I think Mesa are wasting their time publishing accurate technical data instead of marketing-spun bull? I submit that doing so is in itself marketing! They are projecting the image, and to the best of my knowledge its an accurate image, of "We are the serious people. We do this stuff properly. We have the premium product. We don't b******t you." And to a nerd type like me that's a damn powerful image, although I freely admit it hasn't actually had me buy any Mesa kit, what with the prices this side of the pond!

 

[agedhorse]

This is the heart of it I think. When you are talking about sound reproduction, be it hi fi, PA, whatever, in theory at least the ideal is something that delivers to the audience exactly what's put into it, so you can look at a frequency response chart, and roughly speaking the closer it approximates to a level straight line the better, although there's probably a lot to say about the actual pattern of the lumps and bumps that's over my head.

But when it comes to electric instrument amplification that just isn't true. The last few years I've done a bit of home cab building with a bit more information and testing than I was able to do when I first built cabs forty years ago, and although I am no more than a kid splashing in the shallows of the subject, one thing I have learned is that I really don't know what an ideal frequency response curve for a bass cab looks like, but I know its not level. I fear I have enough ego to believe that if I don't understand something then lots and lots of other people don't understand it either. Mesa and all the other companies can present me with all the data needed to make an informed decision, but they can't give me the expertise to understand it.

So does that mean I think Mesa are wasting their time publishing accurate technical data instead of marketing-spun bull? I submit that doing so is in itself marketing! They are projecting the image, and to the best of my knowledge its an accurate image, of "We are the serious people. We do this stuff properly. We have the premium product. We don't b******t you." And to a nerd type like me that's a damn powerful image, although I freely admit it hasn't actually had me buy any Mesa kit, what with the prices this side of the pond!

Interesting perspective, yet providing real data such as power handling that’s “only” 400 watts (RMS) instead of sone others that might rephrase the same 400 watts as 800 or 1600 or even 2000 watts using program or peak or even a made up metric might be seen as “the worst marketing move ever”.

There’s good, honest, accurate data and there’s marketing data. Knowing the difference is important.

 

[LHbassist]

Some more observations.. in the early 90's, I used to play with a fairly well known rock guitarist. It was not a great period in his life, so I'll keep him anonymous out of respect. Played his ass off every night, regardless of the backline provided to him. Some amps were excellent, some were truly borderline acceptable. For me- I was sometimes content, other times listening to the Olympic bass kazoo podium winners. Pot luck was the order of the day.
The BEST electric bass sound I have ever gotten, was on a large concert stage- huge 'sound company' large side fill monitors, and a very large foldback with a 15 and a HF driver, powered with what was likely a lot of really high quality amps in a large array. The house backline rig on that gig- was the same rig I used in N.Y. on my casual club date gigs.. a GK 400 RB and a Hartke 4-10 cabinet. On that concert stage, it sounded awful. It was ignored, and turned down.. the PA amped bass through the monitors was absolutely incredible. So why did a then 'state of the art' bass amp sound so bad, and a PA just destroy it?
Quality of components, power, and the design of the LF drivers and porting.... and the quality of the preamps on the mixing consoles. Typical bass amps just do not have that level of component.. That's why so many of us went to power amps, and preamps, and known quality speakers like Bag End. That got tired, too- as much of it was HEAVY.
Now, many bass amps are lightweight, pretty powerful, and hi fi.
For upright bass- it took me years to realize the best sound I get, is through powered PA speakers.

 

[seamonkey]

IR's are "measurements" of cabinets, so one absolutely can use measurements to hear what a cabinet sounds like. With good headphones or studio monitors. There are virtual rooms to try the cab out in.

If you like the IR, you can always hunt down the original cab.

So, instead of publishing measurements, have customer sign up to receive some IRs, and let people hear them, and run them through their own software to determine how well the cab will sound for them. If they like it, they can buy the cab.

I buy samples packs of other "stuff" to try things out. It's an acceptable practice in some areas.

 

[JimChjones]

yet providing real data such as power handling that’s “only” 400 watts (RMS) instead of sone others that might rephrase the same 400 watts as...

Well it depends who you are marketing to doesn't it? If I see program or peak or even no qualification at all, especially if it's some ludicrous figure then my first reaction is on the lines of "OK if they are bull*******g me about this then what else are they being deceptive about?". It's an immediate markdown in the credibility factor. I suggest that if you are targeting informed customers with a high end product at a high end price then credibility is vital, and Mesa have plenty of it.

 

[Marko 1]

Well it depends who you are marketing to doesn't it? If I see program or peak or even no qualification at all, especially if it's some ludicrous figure then my first reaction is on the lines of "OK if they are bull*******g me about this then what else are they being deceptive about?". It's an immediate markdown in the credibility factor. I suggest that if you are targeting informed customers with a high end product at a high end price then credibility is vital, and Mesa have plenty of it.

I can maybe see a compromise, where listed is RMS and Peak (I'm sure I've seen that done),

then a less knowledgeable buyer can see that bigger number, but in context, and probably figure out what's going on with the other brand and make a more fair comparison.

 

[Geri O]

... publish more meaningful specs.
When frequency response is given as 40-20k... Ok, really? how about +/- how many Db@ what frequency? Like a real curve? And (Bwaahhhahaaa..) what trusted entity shall be the arbiter of the measurement method and accuracy of said assertion(s)???

Same issue with sensitivity- Ok- x Db...??? with what wattage input? Hoping they're measuring at one watt/one meter, but at what frequency?

While these and other specs have limited usefulness even if reported as fairly and accurately as possible (ain't gonna tell you if you'll think it sounds good or bad), standardized, measurable differences would be relevant information.

Just sayin'

I understand the measurement side of speaker specs.

But still, every cabinet I’ve evaluated, bass cab or PA cab, my final and sometimes only criteria is “Does it sound good (to me, of course)?” and “is it loud enough for my needs?”.

And for PA cabs, “is it truck-pack-friendly and easily deployed and/or rigged?”.

 

[Ed6480]

G-Dog posted that true flat on a Rumble is not 12 o'clock for the four EQ knobs. Why would Fender intentionally do this? Is it a defect or a quality control issue? Why would any manufacturer make true flat at approximately 10,2,2,10?

 

[gtirard]

G-Dog posted that true flat on a Rumble is not 12 o'clock for the four EQ knobs. Why would Fender intentionally do this? Is it a defect or a quality control issue? Why would any manufacturer make true flat at approximately 10,2,2,10?

I think you don't understand. It's not a defect or QC issue, it's by design. The Fender Rumble amps have their "signature sound" with their mid-scooped EQ that some people like, so when you set the amp with all EQ knobs at noon, the default setting, the sound have increased bass and treble, and reduced mids. So, if you want to "remove" this "baked in" tone, sort of reset the amp to a more neutral tone, you can set the EQ to 10,2,2,10.

Edit. I was glad that he made this comment, because I don't like this tone, so I though I couldn't cope with Fender Rumble amps when I'm obliged to use them in rented rehearsal studios. With this advice, maybe I'll be able to remove the baked in tone I dislike next time I'm obliged to use one.

 

[Ed6480]

Gtirard, thank you for your response. It makes sense and you taught me something.

 

[agedhorse]

G-Dog posted that true flat on a Rumble is not 12 o'clock for the four EQ knobs. Why would Fender intentionally do this? Is it a defect or a quality control issue? Why would any manufacturer make true flat at approximately 10,2,2,10?

Not a defect, in reality very few players actually like a truly flat tone. Therefore, each designer tailors their amp’s voicing to what most players actually prefer (or their interpretation of this).

 

[walterw]

Best useful "data" would be sound samples with the amp/cab against a drummer and a guitarist.

would it though?

you'd be listening to those samples on what, your phone? computer speakers? home studio monitors?

are any of those going to tell you what kind of actual low end prowess the bass rig has? especially when it's just as likely that the bass by itself would sound similar through those same speakers, telling you nothing about the bass rig