Ignorant question about the sounds of simultaneous notes

[legalbass]

This is usually only true if the engineer isn’t competent, or if someone in the band is intentionally making malicious mix decisions.

The bass on “Justice” is inaudible because Lars is a diva and turned the fader way down during the mix session: which is really a shame, because it’s arguably one of the best metal bass tones and performances ever recorded.

Check out modern metal bands like Meshuggah and Periphery, or even classic metal acts like Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, and you’ll hear the bass and guitar have plenty of space to coexist and still sound powerful.

There are even stem remixes of “Justice” on YouTube that showcase how much better that record would have sounded with the bass left at an audible level.

Whether metal, or any other genre of music, and whether a live performance or a recording, there is no reason whatsoever for guitar, bass, and all other instruments and vocalizations, to not sound perfectly well-fitted to one another.

All it takes, is perhaps the greatest challenge of all: for the people in charge to check their ego's and see the forest for the trees.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Yes, it seems I prefer something right in between what I get at either tuning! Now if I only knew what strings and gauges were currently on my bass!

well actually, I’m pretty happy with the tension at both tunings with these strings. I like to dig in more in standard and play softer in the lower tuning so I don’t really mind the looseness in drop C#.

Sounds like you and I like things about the same. If you bought your bass new and haven’t changed the strings, you can probably find the gauges and possibly even the type of strings by finding your instrument on the builder’s website. If not, the safest bet is probably that they’re .105/.085/.065/.045, or close to it, from E to G; based on how you play differently in your different tunings, that gauge will probably work for either. (Gauge isn’t the whole story, but it’s a decent and easily measurable benchmark.) so you’ve got that going for you

 

[squidtastic]

Okay, so here's an explanation that uses round numbers and all that.

If you play a note at 40hz and then play a major third, you'd get a note of 50hz.

That means the first note is going to cycle every 25ms and the second every 20ms, which gives the following:

0 - both notes start
20 ms - higher note
25 ms - lower note
40 ms - higher note
50 ms - lower note
60 ms - higher note
75 ms - lower note
80 ms - higher note
100 ms - both notes

Now let's take this up a notch. Assume 400hz and 500hz respectively.

0 - both notes start
2 ms - higher note
2.5 ms - lower note
4ms - higher note
5ms - lower note
6ms - higher note
7.5ms - lower note
10ms - higher note

Now, in the first case, you wait 20 ms to hear a note, then 5ms later a second note, then 15 ms, the 10 ms, then 10 then 15ms, then 5 ms....

Compare that to a wait of 2ms, followed by .5, 1.5, 1, etc...

Because the distance in time is so much closer when you get to a higher frequency, the beating effect becomes less and less, eventually to a time difference you don't even notice.

I was going to say something to this effect, but you explained it really well! I'll just add a visual for the OP.
@Rama777 , this image somewhat illustrates what g-dude described so well. Note the length of the frequencies. This image doesn't explicitly show the waves overlaid on each other, but it should be easy to see where the wave peaks line up and how the frequency with which they line up increases as the individual frequencies get higher, i.e., there is less time between each "pulse" or cycle as g-dude explained.
Link Removed

 

[bobdabilder]

If you play long enough you'll find the wave patterns that create the brown note. Exercise caution.

 

[sedan_dad]

I was just listening to it again and it’s as if I’m almost not hearing either note sustain itself when played together because each respective note is fighting against the other and being drowned out by the war of the beats, or like a vibrato effect that borders on the discordant.

I was thinking it could be an effect of bad intonation, which I need to have corrected, but I don’t know. It seems to me like the only issue that would create when playing two notes together is dissonance, not a strong oscillation, unless again that’s just normal on low string dyads played on a bass.

Then don't do that.

 

[Topkat13]

Are you making sure your diet is fiber rich?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

New bass player here

I suppose it may just be normal, but until I find out for sure it’s gonna bother me!

Especially on the lower strings, if I play two notes simultaneously, the beats between the notes are audibly distracting. Is that normal? To me it sounds like I stomped a vibrato effects pedal onto a guitar, kinda sorta. If I pluck the A fret on the E string, while plucking the A string, I get a steady sound of two A’s being played without beats. If I play an open E at the same time as fretting anywhere on the A string (aside from the 7th fret..), the beating makes an oscillating/beating/wobbly vibratoish sound that to me is, well, unpleasant. This beating effect is intensely pronounced on the lower strings, and much much less so on the higher strings. Is that just how it is on bass?

That's usually because your strings are not tuned exactly correct and you get a bit of a wah-wah oscillating effect. As you slowly adjust the highest one, it will either oscillate more rapidly - moving farther out of tune, or it will slow down as you approach the correct pitch and disappear when they are in tune.

Slowly adjusting the lower one will do the same thing but will be at a lower pitch that isn't as easy to hear. Be aware that you have to use your ears for this. Many of the clip on and plug in tuners will get it close but not exact and sometimes just not close enough. It's easiest to hear this if you chime the harmonics on the 5th fret of one string and the 7th fret of the next string to do your tuning. Get it close with your tuner and then use your ears to stop that oscillation.

 

[pglaser01]

I can't believe the myth that lower frequencies "take longer to develop" still persists.

That’s similar to a convo such as

“ hey you played a G, but we’re in an B chord.”

“well then, just move back farther and it’ll sound fine”

 

[HardNHeavy]

 

[2tonic]

This notion, while often repeated, has no basis in any science. Waves don’t “develop” at all once they leave the speaker cone. They attenuate as they propagate, because a fixed amount of energy is spreading through more medium (air). But they most certainly don’t “develop”.

This is true, with one caveat, that I think explains why many bass players feel that bass notes develop over time and distance.
That caveat is standing waves.
When acoustic energy leaves a transducer it rapidly diminishes in strength (-6dB spl for every doubling of distance) unless one or more dimensions of a room matches the wavelength of the note played. Dozens of variables kick in here, but under the right circumstances the reflected energy can combine with, and reinforce the energy content of the original sound.
Sometimes you can hear this from onstage, or if you step out in front.
"Wow, my bass is low onstage but it's killing it out on the dancefloor"!
You've stepped into a positive pressure zone (constructive addition, the standing wave is in phase with the original signal). But walk further and you'll hit a null zone (destructive addition, waves are out of phase) and the bass will disappear. Or stand still and play different notes....same effect. Every room has, at least, 3 dimensions which can possibly generate standing waves (most prominently the length), but only at 3 specific wavelengths and their harmonics. So, in general, they're a sucky thing, yet some rooms have a magical combination that seems to make the bass "come alive", and give credence to the time/distance developing mythos...."my bass really develops about 20 feet in front of my cab".
Only at certain notes, at certain spots, in certain rooms.
Relevant to previous discussion, this is a large scale example of the add/subtract phenomena of those beating notes, which slow as the two pitches equalize.
As an aside, It's also how pilots of twin engine propeller aircraft match the engine rpm's for efficient flight.
Don't ask what kind of piano tuner talent it took to be a flight engineer on a 4 engine WWII era bomber.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

The following is about the "beat note" part of this topic, not the "sum and difference products" part.

There might be exceptions, but speaking of common, P-type pickups, it seems to be the case that alnico pickups compress (some more than others), and ceramic pickups don't (or a lot closer to zero). I suspected this but I guess most enthusiasts already knew. EDIT: Yes, I see now that this is very old news.

As a result (I'm not saying this is science, just giving a general rule that seems to be true), the beat notes produced by a ceramic pickup are sharper and clearer (all else being equal, etc). Of course, some people like that, depending. I was madly in love with it on 6-string guitar (Dimarzio Super Distortion, ceramic with steel pole pieces), as I already told you.

I just heard a Model P for the first time (ceramic magnet with steel pole pieces). Made me think of this thread.

 

[byacey]

Some may find this interesting reading:
Tartini tones and temperament: an introduction for musicians

 

[Rama777]

Good article thanks for sharing!

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Take a clean keyboard through a clean sound system, play any two notes at the same time (consonant or not), and what you get is not mud; the "constructive and destructive interference" part is clearly heard. Play the right two notes and the additional apparent note is beautiful.

A piano is less clear, but still tolerates chords of course.

But an electric bass can get muddy quickly. One big reason for this almost never gets mentioned: alnico pickups compress, and (unlike cleaner ways to get compression), clarity takes a big hit when they do.

When the two notes are additive (as we were talking about) the amplitude gets high of course. Then that additional apparent note that could have been beautiful (if we're set up to produce it, and if we intend it) gets squished and mud is left there.

Well, most bass players don't want to sound like a keyboard, so we all choose the various popular flavorings, to varying degrees. And we have to manage anything we produce that's below xHz. But there are cleaner ways to exclude those, if we want.

***
It's easy to learn how much alnico pickups compress and get muddy: compare a Geezer or Original (both a clearer type) to something with weaker magnets and/or more windings, like a Player (more compressing, less clear). Or go much further and try e.g. a Model P (ceramic with steel pole pieces) compared to a normal alnico. And there are other types of pickups that are even clearer (that I know nothing about).

Lastly, I guess the sum of two notes can't be clear if the two individual notes aren't clear. But (just thought of this), a normal alnico pickup is probably already compressing single notes, especially lows. Sounds pretty good on single notes.