Ignorant question about the sounds of simultaneous notes

[SLO Surfer]

New bass player here

I suppose it may just be normal, but until I find out for sure it’s gonna bother me!

Especially on the lower strings, if I play two notes simultaneously, the beats between the notes are audibly distracting. Is that normal? To me it sounds like I stomped a vibrato effects pedal onto a guitar, kinda sorta. If I pluck the A fret on the E string, while plucking the A string, I get a steady sound of two A’s being played without beats. If I play an open E at the same time as fretting anywhere on the A string (aside from the 7th fret..), the beating makes an oscillating/beating/wobbly vibratoish sound that to me is, well, unpleasant. This beating effect is intensely pronounced on the lower strings, and much much less so on the higher strings. Is that just how it is on bass?

That’ll happen.

 

[Altitude]

If you play the 5th fret A on the E string and a 2nd fret B on the A string together, you get garbage.

If you play the open A string and the 15th fret B on the G string, you get jazz.

Same 2 notes, but a couple octaves apart in the second example versus next door in the first. As people have been saying.

 

[Rama777]

Yeah I meant tremolo, not vibrato. I definitely have an intonation issue that my luthier friend will correct as soon as I can finally make a decision on what new strings to buy, which is a slow process because I still can’t decide if I want it setup for E standard or drop C#..

I’m assuming it’s impossible to get good intonation with both of those tunings regardless of string choice?

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Sum and difference products generated by non-linear distortion (usually mostly in a distortion pedal or in the amplifier) are real notes. The lower ones can be chopped off with a HPF, but this has to happen after they are generated. If they're produced in the amp then this calls for a cab that just can't go that low (or a full-power HPF in the speaker cable, which might exist, I don't know).

A beat is not a real note, as the Wiki explained. I think it could be suppressed with some compression.

 

[swarfrat]

Inteference / Beat frequencies - yeah I discovered this as a kid. Mom had us kids doing chores. I had recently learned this phenomena, so I had my sister sing one note and I sang another just slightly out of tune, and sure enough, we got a beating.

 

[E Joe]

I wouldn’t say it’s an intonation thing by your example!

If your 5th fret on the E string and your open A string don’t create that sound, it means your bass is in tune as these are the same note. When the note is off you’ll hear those beating sounds. Try starting playing those notes in tune and then de-tuning to hear the waves then tuning back up till they disappear.

These dissonant waves or beats or whatever term you wanna use happen on guitars as well and people use them to tune by ear all the time.

It’s harmonic series stuff that gets really complicated to fully understand scientifically but easy to understand and use practically as a player.

To check if your bass needs to be intonated(sp?) plug into a tuner and make sure the note is the same open and at the 12th fret. Intonating is actually really easy to do yourself, but having a luthier run over everything is never a bad idea.

 

[bigjames]

Yeah I meant tremolo, not vibrato. I definitely have an intonation issue that my luthier friend will correct as soon as I can finally make a decision on what new strings to buy, which is a slow process because I still can’t decide if I want it setup for E standard or drop C#..

I’m assuming it’s impossible to get good intonation with both of those tunings regardless of string choice?

Not sure about that...I have great intonation on all my strings, top to bottom (5 string bass). It still sounds muddy if I try to play two low notes at the same time. My Fbass has the clearest double stops on the low strings I have experienced: 34.5" scale and fretless. I assume it is partly construction, partly scale length, partly balance of the strings, and partly fretless (minute pitch correction as opposed to the equal temper of frets). That said, with only some exceptions, I personally find no real value in double stops in the low register, especially when playing with others.

 

[Rama777]

Can someone define double stops for me? And yeah intonation may do nothing as far as this topic is concerned, but I do know that my intonation is off regardless.

 

[E Joe]

A double stop is just 2 strings being played at the same time.

 

[g-dude]

Okay, so here's an explanation that uses round numbers and all that.

If you play a note at 40hz and then play a major third, you'd get a note of 50hz.

That means the first note is going to cycle every 25ms and the second every 20ms, which gives the following:

0 - both notes start
20 ms - higher note
25 ms - lower note
40 ms - higher note
50 ms - lower note
60 ms - higher note
75 ms - lower note
80 ms - higher note
100 ms - both notes

Now let's take this up a notch. Assume 400hz and 500hz respectively.

0 - both notes start
2 ms - higher note
2.5 ms - lower note
4ms - higher note
5ms - lower note
6ms - higher note
7.5ms - lower note
10ms - higher note

Now, in the first case, you wait 20 ms to hear a note, then 5ms later a second note, then 15 ms, the 10 ms, then 10 then 15ms, then 5 ms....

Compare that to a wait of 2ms, followed by .5, 1.5, 1, etc...

Because the distance in time is so much closer when you get to a higher frequency, the beating effect becomes less and less, eventually to a time difference you don't even notice.

 

[Cave Puppy]

Okay, so here's an explanation that uses round numbers and all that.

If you play a note at 40hz and then play a major third, you'd get a note of 50hz.

That means the first note is going to cycle every 25ms and the second every 20ms, which gives the following:

0 - both notes start
20 ms - higher note
25 ms - lower note
40 ms - higher note
50 ms - lower note
60 ms - higher note
75 ms - lower note
80 ms - higher note
100 ms - both notes

Now let's take this up a notch. Assume 400hz and 500hz respectively.

0 - both notes start
2 ms - higher note
2.5 ms - lower note
4ms - higher note
5ms - lower note
6ms - higher note
7.5ms - lower note
10ms - higher note

Now, in the first case, you wait 20 ms to hear a note, then 5ms later a second note, then 15 ms, the 10 ms, then 10 then 15ms, then 5 ms....

Compare that to a wait of 2ms, followed by .5, 1.5, 1, etc...

Because the distance in time is so much closer when you get to a higher frequency, the beating effect becomes less and less, eventually to a time difference you don't even notice.

Same concept I was trying explain earlier. Awesome explanation.

 

[drumvsbass]

My favorite chord voicings below the 12the fret on bass are usually root/10ths, for this reason.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Yeah I meant tremolo, not vibrato. I definitely have an intonation issue that my luthier friend will correct as soon as I can finally make a decision on what new strings to buy, which is a slow process because I still can’t decide if I want it setup for E standard or drop C#..

I’m assuming it’s impossible to get good intonation with both of those tunings regardless of string choice?

You could use the same strings for either tuning, assuming you mean EADG or C#G#C#F#. The tension will be noticeably lower in the lower tuning, especially on the big string, but should be at least intonate-able and playable either way. Realistically though, you will still have to choose one tuning or the other, as you’d really need to do a complete setup every time you switched between tunings that far off from each other.

 

[Jogobass]

Wait till you learn about just intonation. Or maybe don't. once I heard what a major third really should sound like I have had a hard time with intonation on the fretless while playing with other equal temperament instruments.

 

[Rama777]

Riff Ranger, as it is now I play every night for about two hours and I spend an hour in each tuning. So I’m tuning up and down every single day. I know I know, I need another bass!! Just don’t have the money right now..

 

[Riff Ranger]

Riff Ranger, as it is now I play every night for about two hours and I spend an hour in each tuning. So I’m tuning up and down every single day. I know I know, I need another bass!! Just don’t have the money right now..

Ah yes, I’ve been there. Still there in terms of money, and only in part because I eventually acquired more basses

You’ve seen by now, then, how your instrument will be easier to play in whichever tuning it was set up. That’s quite a workout for your strings, too, which has probably already affected their ability to intonate properly in any tuning. It’s not an ideal comparison, but going back and forth like that might at least give you some idea of how much string tension you prefer when the times come for new strings and new basses

 

[Rama777]

Yes, it seems I prefer something right in between what I get at either tuning! Now if I only knew what strings and gauges were currently on my bass!

well actually, I’m pretty happy with the tension at both tunings with these strings. I like to dig in more in standard and play softer in the lower tuning so I don’t really mind the looseness in drop C#.

 

[MDBass]

Aside:
This is one of the reasons for conflict between 6-string guitarists and bassists. On a six string guitar these low frequency beats can sound like a bass playing along with the guitarist, and I can tell you that can be intoxicating to some people. But of course, when a real bassist shows up, real bass notes tend to cover up the guitarists beats, and this is hard to accept; from the guitarists point of view, his "larger than life" foundation drops out. Then what's left of the guitarist's act can sound mediocre, I can tell you.

A great illustrative example is Metallica, where the real bass guitarist is kept low in the mix to let the "larger than life" beats of the guitar be dominant (and a producer can augment this too). Try "Justice" above all.

This is usually only true if the engineer isn’t competent, or if someone in the band is intentionally making malicious mix decisions.

The bass on “Justice” is inaudible because Lars is a diva and turned the fader way down during the mix session: which is really a shame, because it’s arguably one of the best metal bass tones and performances ever recorded.

Check out modern metal bands like Meshuggah and Periphery, or even classic metal acts like Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, and you’ll hear the bass and guitar have plenty of space to coexist and still sound powerful.

There are even stem remixes of “Justice” on YouTube that showcase how much better that record would have sounded with the bass left at an audible level.

 

[jdjk7]

New bass player here

I suppose it may just be normal, but until I find out for sure it’s gonna bother me!

Especially on the lower strings, if I play two notes simultaneously, the beats between the notes are audibly distracting. Is that normal? To me it sounds like I stomped a vibrato effects pedal onto a guitar, kinda sorta. If I pluck the A fret on the E string, while plucking the A string, I get a steady sound of two A’s being played without beats. If I play an open E at the same time as fretting anywhere on the A string (aside from the 7th fret..), the beating makes an oscillating/beating/wobbly vibratoish sound that to me is, well, unpleasant. This beating effect is intensely pronounced on the lower strings, and much much less so on the higher strings. Is that just how it is on bass?

As others have said, intonation could be to blame. The fretted notes need to be as in tune with one another as possible or else chords are going to sound bad.
But, where intonation is not an issue--
Humans can't perceive harmony very well when the notes in question are in the bass range. Typically, if you want to play chords, here are some rules of thumb--

- If it's an octave, you can play those anywhere, assuming your bass is in tune and intonated properly it should be pure with no beating.

- Fifths (power chords) can sound good in close position, where all the notes are within the same octave, above C2 or so (the C on the A string). Playing the same pitches in different positions on the fretboard produces different harmonic content, which can also affect the intelligibility of chords. I.e., if you play the E at the 12th fret of the E string, the 7th fret of the A string, and the 2nd fret of the D string, they are all the same pitch, but they will sound a little different. When stacked into chords, this can make a difference.

- For anything more harmonically complex (anything except octaves, fifths, or fourths), I would either play above E2 (the E at the 7th fret A string) or I would play the chord open-- basically, the notes are spread across two or more octaves. An example of this would be playing the 7th fret E string and the 8th fret of the G string-- this would be a major interval on B where the third is shifted up an octave.

 

[iiipopes]

Yes. They are called difference tones, heterodyning tones, interference tones, etc. Go read this: Author: Hemholz; Title: On the Sensations of Tones. This explains what you hear. I read it cover-to-cover when I was an undergrad in the early 80's:
https://www.amazon.com/Sensations-Tone-Dover-Books-Music/dp/0486607534