Improving while you sleep...

[eric_B]

A lot of teachers tell it is better to practice 1 hour per day, 7 days a week than 1 day per week for 7 hours.
That got me thinking why. Is our mind still working on the motions, songs, scales, patterns and processsing the (new) information and techniques when you go to sleep that day?
So therefore an hour practice a day may equal to, let's say, 1,5 hours?
So 7 x 1 hour would give you 10,5 hours practice a week versus 7,5 hours when only practicing 1 day?
Any thoughts?

 

[BazzTard]

Muscle memory.

Happens all the time. I'll try to play a piece and can't quite do it. Give it a day or two's break and bada bing bada boom all of a sudden I can play it

 

[Torrente Cro]

I use this method a lot, not just in playing but in any learning situation.
If a total time is the same, when I divide practice time in 3-4 small practices I am 3 times more efficient.

 

[eric_B]

I thought the term 'muscle memory' referred to practicing something until you can do it without thinking about it.
Wouldn't this be 'brain memory' instead?

 

[mambo4]

Proprioception is really what you are training : "the Invalid Link Removed of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement."

Personally I excel at practicing in my sleep.

 

[JdoubleH]

...Is our mind still working on the motions, songs, scales, patterns and processsing the (new) information and techniques when you go to sleep that day?
...

Yep, sleep has been shown to be hugely critical part of learning, synthesis and memory recall.

I know for me, several short study or practice sessions over several days with restful sleep in between totally trumps one long grind. I never practice the day of a gig with the intent of improving memory or adding anything. I'll only reinforce what I already know, or rather step through the beginnings / endings / trouble spots to reinforce my readiness in my mind so as to ease any anxiety. I think of it more as warning up my mind as I warm up my fingers.

 

[RunBeerRun]

stop dreaming, pick up your bass!

 

[tonemachine]

A lot of teachers tell it is better to practice 1 hour per day, 7 days a week than 1 day per week for 7 hours.
That got me thinking why. Is our mind still working on the motions, songs, scales, patterns and processsing the (new) information and techniques when you go to sleep that day?
So therefore an hour practice a day may equal to, let's say, 1,5 hours?
So 7 x 1 hour would give you 10,5 hours practice a week versus 7,5 hours when only practicing 1 day?
Any thoughts?

It works for me. I used to, and sometimes still do, sit with a difficult part for way to long trying to nail it at full speed. Few times are correct so I've taught my brain a billion wrong ways, and the brain sleeps on that and the next day... more failed attempts. I learned that if I slow it down so that I nail it everytime 5 to 10 times then do something else, the next day is ridiculously easy to play it considerably faster and correctly.

Also, spend less time getting to the tough parts by isolating just those parts in your practice, don't keep playing all of the stuff leading into or following the tough part (but, of course, make sure you can make the transitions after you have mastered the isolated hard part). I believe that this also teaches your brain to have more small pieces, riffs, whatever, that you can borrow for other times rather than just having it associated with just the particular song the riff is in.

 

[eric_B]

So what would be considered too much practice on a day?
3 hours? maybe 5 or 8?

 

[tonemachine]

So what would be considered too much practice on a day?
3 hours? maybe 5 or 8?

Im not a teacher so I'm not qualified to be absolute...

The trick is playing the right stuff for your level, mindfully, and for however long you have. Some guys practice 8-10 hours a day; it depends what you want in life.

 

[Hugh_R]

A lot of teachers tell it is better to practice 1 hour per day, 7 days a week than 1 day per week for 7 hours.
That got me thinking why. Is our mind still working on the motions, songs, scales, patterns and processsing the (new) information and techniques when you go to sleep that day?
So therefore an hour practice a day may equal to, let's say, 1,5 hours?
So 7 x 1 hour would give you 10,5 hours practice a week versus 7,5 hours when only practicing 1 day?
Any thoughts?

Part of the reason is to do with the subconscious brain. Basically, are conscious brain can only access a small amount of the information we hold and poses. Yet our unconscious can access a great deal more. This means that when we practice on something we are only using our conscious minds to solve to problems we face. Maybe those problems are working on a particular lick or trying to transcribe something etc. But, what happens when we finish a practice session is that our unconscious mind keeps working on that problem. People encounter this all the time. Have you ever had to do brainstorming as part of a group at school? Did you ever notice how you hardly ever had good ideas during the brain storm but maybe an hour after it was over you had a brilliant one? Or perhaps you were able to think of the perfect thing to say in a conversation a few minutes after it finished? This is the reason why.

Regarding the amount of practice you do I would suggest doing a bit everyday rather than a huge chunk every now and then. Part of practice is also maintenance which requires a regular workout for your hands. It's like fitness in a way. Being generally fit requires some exercise everyday but if you tried to cram the equivalent of years of general fitness into one gym workout you'd never get through because you'd be exhausted.

Link Removed in which I briefly discuss something known as the "twenty minute rule" in practice. Basically, your brain can only take in new information at its optimum capacity for around twenty minutes before it needs a break. It's of course physically possible for us to go for longer but if you take breaks every twenty minutes you get a few benefits.

1. You have limited time so you're way more focussed during practice
2. You give your unconscious brain a chance to process everything you've just worked on
3. Your muscles last for longer because they get regular intervals to flush out lactic acid
4. You get a chance to recharge your body with food and water when you need to

I would suggest doing a little each day. I have found it useful to go for roughly twenty minutes practice, twenty minutes of rest and then keep alternating between the two.

Best of luck with your practice!

 

[rtav]

To answer your question specifically - YES - I know I practice in my sleep. I dream of patterns on the fingerboard, or that I'm playing particular songs.

When I broke my fretting hand middle finger in Jan of 2014 (7 screws, 2 titanium plates), I used to practice in my dreams when I couldn't play.

It seemed like EVERY SINGLE NIGHT I would dream I was playing different riffs (I remember dreaming specifically I was playing the bass line at the end of Spirit of Radio), and it was wonderful, until I woke up and couldn't depress the strings if you put a gun to my head.

Fortunately, I had a great doctor who worked with musicians and after a very painful rehab, I'm playing better than ever.

So YES.

 

[tonemachine]

Part of the reason is to do with the subconscious brain. Basically, are conscious brain can only access a small amount of the information we hold and poses. Yet our unconscious can access a great deal more. This means that when we practice on something we are only using our conscious minds to solve to problems we face. Maybe those problems are working on a particular lick or trying to transcribe something etc. But, what happens when we finish a practice session is that our unconscious mind keeps working on that problem. People encounter this all the time. Have you ever had to do brainstorming as part of a group at school? Did you ever notice how you hardly ever had good ideas during the brain storm but maybe an hour after it was over you had a brilliant one? Or perhaps you were able to think of the perfect thing to say in a conversation a few minutes after it finished? This is the reason why.

Regarding the amount of practice you do I would suggest doing a bit everyday rather than a huge chunk every now and then. Part of practice is also maintenance which requires a regular workout for your hands. It's like fitness in a way. Being generally fit requires some exercise everyday but if you tried to cram the equivalent of years of general fitness into one gym workout you'd never get through because you'd be exhausted.

Link Removed in which I briefly discuss something known as the "twenty minute rule" in practice. Basically, your brain can only take in new information at its optimum capacity for around twenty minutes before it needs a break. It's of course physically possible for us to go for longer but if you take breaks every twenty minutes you get a few benefits.

1. You have limited time so you're way more focussed during practice
2. You give your unconscious brain a chance to process everything you've just worked on
3. Your muscles last for longer because they get regular intervals to flush out lactic acid
4. You get a chance to recharge your body with food and water when you need to

I would suggest doing a little each day. I have found it useful to go for roughly twenty minutes practice, twenty minutes of rest and then keep alternating between the two.

Best of luck with your practice!

Thanks for the explanation of how it works!

 

[eric_B]

Part of the reason is to do with the subconscious brain. Basically, are conscious brain can only access a small amount of the information we hold and poses. Yet our unconscious can access a great deal more. This means that when we practice on something we are only using our conscious minds to solve to problems we face. Maybe those problems are working on a particular lick or trying to transcribe something etc. But, what happens when we finish a practice session is that our unconscious mind keeps working on that problem. People encounter this all the time. Have you ever had to do brainstorming as part of a group at school? Did you ever notice how you hardly ever had good ideas during the brain storm but maybe an hour after it was over you had a brilliant one? Or perhaps you were able to think of the perfect thing to say in a conversation a few minutes after it finished? This is the reason why.

Regarding the amount of practice you do I would suggest doing a bit everyday rather than a huge chunk every now and then. Part of practice is also maintenance which requires a regular workout for your hands. It's like fitness in a way. Being generally fit requires some exercise everyday but if you tried to cram the equivalent of years of general fitness into one gym workout you'd never get through because you'd be exhausted.

Link Removed in which I briefly discuss something known as the "twenty minute rule" in practice. Basically, your brain can only take in new information at its optimum capacity for around twenty minutes before it needs a break. It's of course physically possible for us to go for longer but if you take breaks every twenty minutes you get a few benefits.

1. You have limited time so you're way more focussed during practice
2. You give your unconscious brain a chance to process everything you've just worked on
3. Your muscles last for longer because they get regular intervals to flush out lactic acid
4. You get a chance to recharge your body with food and water when you need to

I would suggest doing a little each day. I have found it useful to go for roughly twenty minutes practice, twenty minutes of rest and then keep alternating between the two.

Best of luck with your practice!

Thanks Hugh, your message seems to confirm some of my thoughts on the matter.
Yet, it makes me wonder how useful it was when I had to school 8 hours a day when I was young.
Wouldn't it make more sense to break those lessons up as well?

 

[Hugh_R]

Thanks Hugh, your message seems to confirm some of my thoughts on the matter.
Yet, it makes me wonder how useful it was when I had to school 8 hours a day when I was young.
Wouldn't it make more sense to break those lessons up as well?

Well, like anything, I imagine there are several factors to grasp here. For one, this is a very abstract concept to grasp which is, in all honesty, probably way beyond the average child so trying to get them to focus rigidly for twenty minutes then take a break and constantly be off and on again would be a challenge. Also, seeing as children aren't that disciplined at a young age it may just descend into disrupted chaos. After all, sticking to this plan really does take discipline. At the time of writing this I've just finished a twenty minute practice chunk and I really want to continue because I'm starting to notice progress! Being able to do this effectively, like anything, requires practice, discipline, patience and time!

 

[Hugh_R]

Thanks for the explanation of how it works!

My pleasure! Glad it was useful to you

 

[eric_B]

Well, like anything, I imagine there are several factors to grasp here. For one, this is a very abstract concept to grasp which is, in all honesty, probably way beyond the average child so trying to get them to focus rigidly for twenty minutes then take a break and constantly be off and on again would be a challenge. Also, seeing as children aren't that disciplined at a young age it may just descend into disrupted chaos. After all, sticking to this plan really does take discipline. At the time of writing this I've just finished a twenty minute practice chunk and I really want to continue because I'm starting to notice progress! Being able to do this effectively, like anything, requires practice, discipline, patience and time!

Well, yeah, it will be different for children. They have less of a plan or end goal to work at and will (or not) listen to the teacher and do what they are told to. Or whatever draws their attention.

I have visited several business seminars (3 hours in the morning, 3 hours afternoon) with mostly people in their 30s and 40s attending and I noticed almost everyone lost focus and concentration probably 3/4 of the 2nd half (and maybe way sooner). Knowing learning gets harder when you're getting older, it probably would make more sense to break up those training days into 2 halves instead of 1 full day.

 

[Hugh_R]

I know exactly what you mean! Learning is something that always changes and it would be naive for us to expect that we can always learn in the same way through out our lives. After all, we get smarter and learn more as we get older so we'll need something more challenging or stretching to give us more growth rather than the same thing.

Knowing how your body works is a huge part of it though. Personally, I always experience a concentration lull between 4/5 pm and 7/8 pm so I just stop working and rest. I know that I won't be focussed and that the quality of what I do, be it practice, teaching, writing articles for my site or anything else will suffer. If I'm in a situation when I don't have the luxury of that break then so be it but if I have the option, I always rest because it makes the day as a whole far more productive for me.

 

[tonemachine]

I know exactly what you mean! Learning is something that always changes and it would be naive for us to expect that we can always learn in the same way through out our lives. After all, we get smarter and learn more as we get older so we'll need something more challenging or stretching to give us more growth rather than the same thing.

Knowing how your body works is a huge part of it though. Personally, I always experience a concentration lull between 4/5 pm and 7/8 pm so I just stop working and rest. I know that I won't be focussed and that the quality of what I do, be it practice, teaching, writing articles for my site or anything else will suffer. If I'm in a situation when I don't have the luxury of that break then so be it but if I have the option, I always rest because it makes the day as a whole far more productive for me.

Wow, a 20 min break every 20 minutes. I know everyone is different but what do you think about using the "rest" 20 minutes for tightening up what you already know, given that physical endurance isn't a limiting factor for me and I have a lot of stuff to learn/tighten up.

 

[tonemachine]

Wow, a 20 min break every 20 minutes. I know everyone is different but what do you think about using the "rest" 20 minutes for tightening up what you already know, given that physical endurance isn't a limiting factor for me and I have a lot of stuff to learn/tighten up.

It's funny, 20 minutes A DAY was what my parents made me practice on clarinet growing up and I think I became quite good over 8 years, probably better than on bass after 25 years as an adult with all the usual life junk!