There are very few Mozarts. There are also idiot savants that can hear a complicated piece and then play it note for note. I'm more along the line of idiot nonsavant---but I work hard and I get better. Having said that, I KNOW I can't sing and have been frequently reminded of that fact. In fact, it is illegal for me to sing in most states (although I am allowed to hum softly in most). Keep fighting the battle daily and you'll win the war.
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Innate inability?
- Thread starter Zerozeddy
- Start date
IMO - Some people certainly do seem have more "natural talent" for certain things. It doesn't matter whether it's music, sports, languages, or whatever. Also, some people are better at being able to focus on leaning a new skill, and their hard work will frequently bring them better results than someone who may be more naturally gifted but lacks the focus or dedication necessary to use their talent effectively. It's people with natural talent AND dedication that really excell.
We all have talents for different things. In my case it took three years of dedicated practice to decide I will not be a concert pianist. My brain is not wired to let my hands work completely independently from one another. On the other hand, I can pick up instruments where the hands work cooperatively with little effort. Let's see... I also am good at billiards, utterly suck at darts, and may only sing in large groups or my car (alone). I could try to get better at darts or singing, but I'd rather invest my time elsewhere.
At the end of the day, do what you enjoy and you will probably become good if not great at it. If you don't have the talent for it, you will probably not enjoy it and naturally move on to something else.
At the end of the day, do what you enjoy and you will probably become good if not great at it. If you don't have the talent for it, you will probably not enjoy it and naturally move on to something else.
I believe some people are simply willing to put more time, effort and love into their playing. To me music is everything, so it isn't hard for me to not drink or party etc, if I feel that can help me improve my playing by getting me more practise time.
I do believe in innate talent, but I would say any person who puts music first will be able to reach the highest level of musicianship because they will never fail to try anything to get better.
I do believe in innate talent, but I would say any person who puts music first will be able to reach the highest level of musicianship because they will never fail to try anything to get better.
pklima said:
+1
I believe there are some innate abilities your born with. But on the whole Everyone has the ability to learn.
This doesnt apply only to Music.
It is all about getting the right information, resources, good listening and having the ability for you to put the pieces together. You must have a good time with it and experiment. Lets face it, You must have a passion for anything you want to excel in. Having a good teacher isnt going to make you play better. Its not going to assist you in the physical/mental aspect of playing. Its what you get out of it and how you apply it. Through practice and error is where your creative side comes from.
Zerozeddy said:
Like any talent, there are savants who were born to it and there are those who lack the minimum competency necessary to get started. In between lie the great majority of us who are forced to develop our abilities through a combination of learning, practice and willpower.
Creativity is the hardest thing to master in a subjective endeavor such as music, because there will always be a critic who will regard your work as rubbish. Don't let that critic be you. Just create, and leave the judgment to others.
Zerozeddy said:
No, not with you. In the context you're using the term "Innate Inability", it's somewhat of an oxymoron.
Matthew Bryson said:
But do they become good at writing melodies through hard work? I've been playing for 28 years, I practise and am technically proficient*, I just can't write a tune I consider good.
Matthew Bryson said:
Well, you could learn to speak Chinese, but could you write a fascinating story in it? (coming up with a good story line is surely the same as writing a melody, it doesn't matter in what language you write it down or speak it)
*Given that my perception of practice = play something slowly enough so you play it accurately and gradually build up the speed then repeat till automatic. If what you are practising is rubbish, you'll end up playing rubbish (but playing it well)
Herman said:
I'm saying "to be born without the ability to do something", and oxymoronic or not, everyone else seemed to understand what I meant - which is, after all, the point and power of language. Much as I object to the supermarket nominating certain check-outs as being for "Five items or less", I don't see shoppers milling around in front of it with their baskets of five items or fewer, not knowing whether they can go through it or not.
"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put", as Winston Churchill more or less said, allegedly.
But what people are saying is that nobody is born with an ability of the type you are describing - they have to work at it and the amount of time they put in, determines how good they are.
To take your own example - it would be quite possible for you to learn about what makes a good tune, study with as many songwriters as you can, spend huge amounts of time analysing what it is that makes a good tune and how they are written.
Mozart wrote a system for writing tunes that anybody can follow.
It then comes down to what I was talking about - musical taste!!
So I have met two or three very successful songwriters who have written a lot of tunes that have made them money - but each of these people has had no musical taste whateoever - IMO of course!!
But it doesn't matter, as they keep on going and people buy the stuff they like and ignore the stuff they don't - no problem!!
To take your own example - it would be quite possible for you to learn about what makes a good tune, study with as many songwriters as you can, spend huge amounts of time analysing what it is that makes a good tune and how they are written.
Mozart wrote a system for writing tunes that anybody can follow.
It then comes down to what I was talking about - musical taste!!
So I have met two or three very successful songwriters who have written a lot of tunes that have made them money - but each of these people has had no musical taste whateoever - IMO of course!!
But it doesn't matter, as they keep on going and people buy the stuff they like and ignore the stuff they don't - no problem!!
Ability comes from a combination of BOTH practice and hard work AND a genetic makeup leading to good dexterity, speed and precision with the fingers as well as a good ear.
From a physiological point of view, I think it is possible to have an innate inability. Just as virtuosos, elite athletes etc have the genetic edge to excell, so can others have a genetic disadvantage.
In extreme cases, maybe even dedication and hard work cannot push past that hurdle.
From a physiological point of view, I think it is possible to have an innate inability. Just as virtuosos, elite athletes etc have the genetic edge to excell, so can others have a genetic disadvantage.
In extreme cases, maybe even dedication and hard work cannot push past that hurdle.
I have no concrete evidence as such. It's my opinion.
I'm not saying that its impossible for some people to become good players. I'm saying that genetics makesit easier for others.
For example, sprinters are born with a high percentage of fast twitch muscle and marathon runners with slow twitch. No matter how hard a marathon runner trains he will never possess the explosive speed that the sprinter does.
I'm not saying that its impossible for some people to become good players. I'm saying that genetics makesit easier for others.
For example, sprinters are born with a high percentage of fast twitch muscle and marathon runners with slow twitch. No matter how hard a marathon runner trains he will never possess the explosive speed that the sprinter does.
Assuming it's nonohmic whose argument you want evidence for, I reckon I'm genetically unable to compete at olympic distance running, due to being big-boned with short legs. I might also have been born with no legs or a weak heart etc. I have short pudgy fingers and I find it nay impossible to play an octave on a full-size piano, so I doubt I'd make it as a concert pianist. If I was colour-blind I wouldn't be allowed to be a fighter pilot, and in years past I would be too short to be a fireman. No matter how much effort I put into trying to be taller, I fear it ain't gonna happen.
Exactly. I guess music is bit different to those examples in that you are relying on your fingers, and the physical differences in peoples fingers are a lot smaller than height for example. In this way anybody can become a competent bassist with work.
But the main point remains true.
But the main point remains true.
nonohmic said:
Isn't this just an excuse for a kind of "inverse racism"...
I don't buy it - if it was true then Borzov, should never have won a sprint race as a white Russian and Paul Radcliffe shouldn't hold the world marathon record against all those Kenyans etc. - but she does !!
nonohmic said:
But all this stuff about athletes is totally irrelevant anyway, as what was under discussion was the idea of an innate inability to compose a tune - which requires no physiological advantages and no skill whatsoever as a player!!
Bruce Lindfield said:
Quite true, although it was more the "genetic disposition" than athleticism that was the important aspect of the argument, I think.
The "no skill as a player" statement hits the nail right on my hypothesis's head. In fact we can take instrumental competence completely out of the equation, and look at one's ability (or otherwise) to write a good tune by humming it whilst staring mindlessly at a computer monitor.
I'd rather not discuss whether humming - or staring mindlessly - are skills that require hard work to achieve...
