Double Bass Interior endpin length question

[Chris Fitzgerald]

For years now I've been sitting on a 24" stool with the endpin all the way in. This leaves a heavy length of metal sticking up into the bass. I don't really mind that if it isn't hurting anything soundwise, and it's convenient if I either don't have a stool with me or if someone else wants to sit in. Would it be worth it, though, to bother creating a really short pin with a rubber tip (I suppose the hidden point underneath would also be good in case it slips) to replace the long largely unused pin with 95% of the time when I'm playing, or would this just be a waste of time? Just curious what the luthier types have to say about this.

 

[Mr Ralph]

Chris, I am a rookie at this but I did just that. I have a short wood end pin that I put in. I use it for travel and when I play sitting. I have a longer one that I use when I play standing. I noticed a difference in sound without the long end pin in. I know Jake is an advocate of the wood end pin. I would be happy to make you one to try. I would need a few accurate measurements. I have made them out of oak, birch and maple. Did not notice any difference in sound, between the different wood. I can post some pics if you are interested.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I'd be surprised if the unused endpin length has nearly as much audible impact as when it's extended. That said now the question has been asked if it were my bass I'd have to try a shorter wood endpin just to see. I'd imagine that the better tuned your tailpiece/tailgut are to the bass the more likely you would be to hear something even with only the length of the rubber tip extended. Curious to see what the luthiers have to say.

 

[drurb]

Chris-- you mentioned that you have a metal endpin. I'm sure not a luthier and I don't play one on TV. Still, my luthier and and many others who post here seem to universally recommend removing the extra mass. My metal endpin was cut so that when it's extended in playing position there's still sufficient length extending up past the endblock for stability. A huge chunk was cut off. I can't say that I could discern a difference attributable to that change but, not surprisingly, when the endpin was cut there were other little tweaks made. Having two endpins is really such a cheap solution that, given the usual luthier advice, it seems to make sense.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Ralph - thanks, would love to see pics! I'm really not sure how a wooden endpin would attach to a slick floor, though. What's your solution?

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Chris, if you want to hear what your bass would sound like without all the extra pin, just take it out and play it - you'll hear the difference!

A wooden endpin with a New Harmony endpin ball does a good job of supporting your bass in a musical way, whether standing or seated.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

If you replace a metal with a wood pin, that will definitely make a difference. However, I've got short metal and wood endpins that I've used when sitting and I really didn't notice anything, going short to long. I don't bother with them anymore. Keep in mind, when we play on carpet (which I do most of the time), that is a huge sound sucker and probably has more of an effect than the length of the endpin.

I usually play at home in a carpeted area, but just moved to the wooden floor in the hall, and what a difference! Of course the walls are much closer together... Switching between the wooden pin all in and mostly out, I didn't hear any difference.

 

[Mr Ralph]

For what its worth I will post some pics tonight.

 

[GretschWretch]

My first consideration would be that the bit of the long endpin still inside the bass does not vibrate sympathetically with one or more notes; I've had that happen. In your situation, I would go with the second endpin, of the material of your choice. However you address your bass when standing, I would get a short endpin of the length required to maintain that ergonomic relationship when you play seated.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I chopped off a big chunk of my 10mm steel endpin. Now only about 2 inches sticks out above the block inside at my preferred playing height. I think the bass is more resonate (louder) and because I play unamplified (busking) and/or with a mic as my primary reinforcement, I guest it could be noticeable (I noticed a difference) but mostly the bass just weighs less.

(FWIW there is more of a difference between a carbon fiber endpin and the steel on this bass, the steel endpin sounded a little louder and clearer.)

edit: I pretty much only play standing.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I sawed off about 2 &1/2 inches of my metal endpin. I couldn't really tell any big sound difference, but I did like that it made the bass slightly lighter to carry around.

 

[Mr Ralph]

1. Here is my end pin collection. Left to right carbon Fiber. Wood with carbon fiber. Birch pin. Pin for traveling and playing seated. Pin for standing.
   
2. Close up of oak wood pin I use standing. I use the rubber foot for hard surfaces. No rubber on carpet. It is drilled through, tried to show in third pic.
3. Wood end pin socket I made of oak. Threaded the oak for the screw. I use a rubber tipped screw. Just tight enough to hold it in as it cannot slip. I honestly heard no difference between steel socket and wood end pin and wood socket and wood end pin.
4. Standing pin in bass with rubber foot.
5. Short travel or sitting pin on bass.
6. Tail piece I made out of a tail piece off an Eastman bass. Under side is grooved out to reduce weight.
7. I am just a rookie player and I like to experiment and tinker but I definitely think the bass sounds better without the long steel end pin.

 

[Steve Swan]

If it is a standard diameter endpin rod, you could probably find another one at a busy bass repair shop. The collar parts tend to wear out more quickly than the steel rods themselves, so there would likely be a little pile of them available. A very long endpin rod can whip around the inside of a bass like a car antenna if the collar has been worn. This can be the source of some pretty annoying rattles!

 

[eh_train]

360 Guy, who is on TB, has designed a new endpin with a collar (no screw to wear out), and uses nothing but various types of wooden endpins with it. He did some trials at the last Oberlin workshop and a number of participants rated the differences depending on the wood used.

Like Steve points out, long metal rods can give off some amazing vibrations. I don't think you'd have any noticeable rattles with a 5/8" wooden endpin.

Cheers,

Paul (eh_train)

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I took the endpin out last night and played for a bit on carpet and couldn't tell much difference, but will try again today.

 

[LouisF]

Since I always play sitting down on a low stool, I cut the endpins to 6 or 8 inches at most. I think it makes a small difference both to sound and weight. As I wrote in the other thread, the big difference is whether the pin is metal, wood or carbon fiber
Louis

 

[Benthoven]

I've gotten RAVE reviews from all the bassists around here for whom I have replaced steel pins with wooden ones. I provide them with two endpins, one with a rubber tip and one with the metal tip (that I have to make myself). These pics don't show the finished version, where I've dyed the pins black with leather dye. Personally, I was astonished at how differently it allowed my own bass vibrate against my body, and how much more sound it produces with a wooden pin. Evidently, the metal pins just seem to prevent the lower bout from vibrating anywhere near its potential.

 

[Benthoven]

Oh, I just remembered an endpin-related moment of consternation - I'd just finished a harrowing back-brace repair in the lower bout on a very old and valuable flatback German bass for a client, which had a really nasty buzz from it, and the seam had also finally opened. After the repairs, I re-strung and tuned it up, pulled a couple inches of metal endpin out (where I play), and BUZZZZZ! Oh NO! "My backbrace repair FAILED!" or so I thought. After a few despondent and panicked moments of checking things out - I discovered it was the overlength of steel endpin inside that was now buzzing! My client is about 6'-2" and always sets his endpin 9-3/8" outside of the bass, so the overlength had never buzzed on him. That incident started the conversation about switching to a wooden endpin, which we subsequently did. He's been referring business to me ever since!