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Double Bass internal time

pbass888

pbass888

Up the Irons! Westham United FC--mile high irons
Supporting Member
Jul 8, 2009
2,299
2,154
Denver
#1
I have really been working on my internal time feel. Paul Warburton suggested playing with records when he was kind enough to speak with me about it a year ago.Seems like great advice and I do see improvement.

I wonder what excercises I could do to develop my internal time, and what my fellow jazz players/teachers use.
To try to improve my feel and swing, and would love to hear from life long jazz players on how to develop my time with and without the metronome.

I have been blessed to work with Todd Johnson who has really helped me on my gigs by practicing using the metronome on 2 and 4. This has really helped in my soloing , where drops out(often without a drummer in a duo or trio setting).

I have recently read that using the metronome just on one will help or, recording one measure with the metronome and them one without (dropping out tics for a while)....

I recently played with some great cats on an open mic night and we did rythym changes. The tempo def sped up as we got to my solo (near the end ) I would guess we were at least 10-15 beats faster than the smoking tempo that we started at!! I accept fault for allowing this to happen , but what exercises do you guys suggest?

I do use the metronome on my daily practice on 2 and 4 for my scales, cycle work etc etc. about 30 min.

Any other exercises that I should add to my practice routine?

Thank you TB and best holiday wishes to all my fellow TB'ers.
Warm Regards,
Sri Viswanath
 
#3
Hi Ed
Great to hear from you and will do. I'm working on transcribing bags groove album with Percy Heath on bass. Man that grooves a mile wide....at least... ha! Hope that you have a great holiday and looking forward to the apple in 2012.
Best
Sri

Ps the slow way of learning tunes is great( my teacher Todd also believes in this) and your method of arpeggiating the changes has really helped get the tue and the chord tones in my head! My singing of melodies and walking lines still sounds like a dying longhorn but man I believe its definitely helping plying over the changes.
 
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#4
I thought this thread would explode into longs diatribes of metronome vs. no-metronome, so I stayed away. I'm glad nothing like that is happening.

Something I do, but not enough of, is take a click at a tempo (say 60bpm) and then mentally going through all the different ways this unaccented click can exist in a meter.

ie. click at 60bpm
= quarter at 60 on each beat of the bar, on the "let" or beat-trip-let (12/8)
= half at 120 on either 2+4 or 1+3, 2&+4&, 1&+3&
= whole at 240 on either, 1, or 2, or 3, or 4

Then going through the compatible layers of time .. the click stays the same the internal pulse changes
ie. click at 60bpm
quarter on 1234, half on 1+3, whole on 1
quarter on 1&, 2&, 3&, 4&, half on 2+4, whole on 3
quarter on 1a, 2a, 3a, 4a, half on 2&+4&, whole on 4

I think this helps with my stability, when I practice it.

without the metronome..
To avoid just slopping around... I find without without the met practice to be useful when I actively count the smallest subdivision I can. For quarter note pulse, I focus on either a 16th note grid, or a triplet 8th grid.

Then while counting "1e&a2e&a3e&a....." I go through the rhythmic patters I want to use. Then repeat with "1-trip-let, 2-trip-let, 3-trip-let....
I find I can play things at tempo X , but can only count subdivisions and play same things at tempo 50% of X. So I start slow and build it back up.

Most of the above can be done away from a specific instrument. Counting, clapping, thinking the rhythm, feeling pulse and meter is not instrument specific.


I read somewhere that most humans hear a core rhythm between 50-100bpm, and then hear other pulses as divisions or multiples of the core rhythm. The theory being the core rhythm/cadence is related to our heart pulse, walking pace, or nervous system stuff build.

So the above exercises help bring all sorts of tempos, meters, patterns etc down to the same core cadence. Hear the "big beat", hear the "little beat", hear it all.
 
#5
#6
pbass888 said:
I have really been working on my internal time feel. Paul Warburton suggested playing with records when he was kind enough to speak with me about it a year ago.Seems like great advice and I do see improvement.

I wonder what excercises I could do to develop my internal time, and what my fellow jazz players/teachers use.
To try to improve my feel and swing, and would love to hear from life long jazz players on how to develop my time with and without the metronome.

I have been blessed to work with Todd Johnson who has really helped me on my gigs by practicing using the metronome on 2 and 4. This has really helped in my soloing , where drops out(often without a drummer in a duo or trio setting).

I have recently read that using the metronome just on one will help or, recording one measure with the metronome and them one without (dropping out tics for a while)....

I recently played with some great cats on an open mic night and we did rythym changes. The tempo def sped up as we got to my solo (near the end ) I would guess we were at least 10-15 beats faster than the smoking tempo that we started at!! I accept fault for allowing this to happen , but what exercises do you guys suggest?

I do use the metronome on my daily practice on 2 and 4 for my scales, cycle work etc etc. about 30 min.

Any other exercises that I should add to my practice routine?

Thank you TB and best holiday wishes to all my fellow TB'ers.
Warm Regards,
Sri Viswanath
Click to expand...

You might want to check out Hal Galper's videos on Youtube. This one is a good place to start.:
Hal Galper's Piano Lesson - Minimizing Emotion - YouTube
 
#7
A few suggestions-
1- Pat your foot and put the metronome on 2 and 4. And, as you said, 1 for the way uptempo numbers.
2- Get a metronome with a footswitch on /off or mute. Play with it for about a minute, then shut it off and play for a couple of more minutes, then restart it, to see if you are still at the same tempo. Doing this for a solo is real frustrating..
3- You can do this without a bass- start the click, and sing a bass part while clapping hands. Pitch doesn't matter, it's the time that does. Note if you are centered on the beat.
 
#8
Playing with recordings is great but you should try recording yourself playing along with the recording. I do it in garage band by importing the song and then playing along in headphones while recording with a mic. Then when you listen back, you can fade yourself in and out to see how you are lining up with the bassist on the recording. This will not only improve your time but will help with your feel and ability to hook up with a drummer. I think having a great feel is better than having a metronomic sense of time.
 
#9
Thank you for all the great ideas!
Longfinger-- great answers and a lot of food for thougth... thank you
Hdiddy and JazzDog- I will check out the videos by mike and hal on youtube over the next few days,much appreciated
Aaronallen- I dont know about garage band and love the idea of fade in and out to hear.
This is my real goal for 2012 strengthen my time and ears. Thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction
 
#13
Unfortunate souls like myself who use Android phones must make do with simple metronomes. :rolleyes:
John's link has some good ideas. One thing I do in the car is to tap my finger on the wheel along with the radio, turn the radio down for several seconds and then bring it back up.
 
#14
One thing to consider about time is how it serves the phrase, or the melody of the music. That is why we play in time, to support the swing of the phrase in a swing feeling. Internalizing the melodies of tunes, and soloing language of the style you play will really get the time into your body. Without this you are nothing but a clock. On another note, a friend told me that Ron Carter made him play with the metronome on all quarter notes so that you do not float the beats that are not otherwise given on the metronome.
Joe Porter
 
#16
I've been using this app: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Still working through Mike Longo's drumming stuff from DVD 2. The stuff really sinks in and removes some of the mystery of building my internal clock. Being able to feel 6/8, 3/4, 4/4, 2/2 all at the same... then suddenly I surprised myself with being able to feel 5/4 on top of that. It's weird. You start to feel the dance, even playing heads isn't the same anymore. I'm also messing around with the same ideas from Milt Hinton's rhythms I picked up from a slap solo, and I get the same thing - it's a whole lot less mysterious.

Being able to turn on/off accents for particular subdivisions (which you can do with Cycles) has been key. I'm drumming against the sounds of the app every day at slower tempos (70+ bpm). I should try going even slower.
 
#17
Have you tried Metronome on just 4?

Its a lot of fun when you get it down.

How are your latin rhythms? Internalizing some of them willl really help time.

Todd Johnson is an awesome man, and im proud to say i am am from his pedigree.


Also +1 on the Hal Galper Videos. Most of them are dead on.
 
#19
I think thats a good point. Im working on my latin rythms and will check out the video mentioned, thank you! I just generally dig hal galpers message.

Violen said:
Have you tried Metronome on just 4?

Its a lot of fun when you get it down.

How are your latin rhythms? Internalizing some of them willl really help time.

Todd Johnson is an awesome man, and im proud to say i am am from his pedigree.


Also +1 on the Hal Galper Videos. Most of them are dead on.
Click to expand...
 
#20
Progris update?

Although using a metronome and drumming rhythms helps, I'm finding that just recording myself sans metronome might be the best solution. I'll just record myself counting something off, playing the the head, and soloing. I'm not recording my walking because once I can establish a regular rhythm, it's not hard to hold it. I suppose if your time is weak, you should record yourself walking so you can examine it afterward.

Anyways, once it's recorded, I'll immediately listen to it and snap my fingers on 2 & 4 against the recording. There's no doubt where I'm rushing. In spots where I feel a little anxious, I'll cut the beat short and cause the time to rush. Its nice when I do it right, there's sort of a dancing quality to it. I figured out if I took a more relaxed approach to playing, my time improves and is far more consistent.

I think this is the best solution for me. Playing with a metronome is important, but even with the clicks on 4 or some larger number, it's still too easy to try to lock with the metronome. This way, there are no excuses, nothing to lock onto. It's a tough process but seems to improve bit by bit. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out where I was messing up my time and at least this gives me an idea. With a metronome, you're too busy listening to it.

One more important note: as I'm recording myself, I'm not allowing myself to physically count the time. No foot tapping, no counting time vocally. If I feel it internally, fine, but nothing expressed outwardly.

In hindsight, my goal here is not to have metronomic time, but to establish a swing thats so good that dancers can dance to it. If I can establish it by myself, certainly other players can lock onto my time. Wonder if someone else could give this a try and see what they find. I'll try to post recordings if I'm able to get a decent solo in without rushing.
 

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