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Intros where it's hard to find the "1"

#28
jmattbassplaya said:
Haha, I never would of guessed that. I don't think I've even seen a piece of music written in 16 before.

My personal favorite time signature is 7/8.
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Yeah, Dream Theater uses 16 meters every once and a while and if IRRC there's a one off 15/16 in Malignant Narcissism.

7/8 is so sweet, Porcupine Tree has a really fluid example in The Sound Of Muzak don't mind Gavin's oddly phrased drum line that he somehow makes work :p They also use 16 meters a fair amount, see solo section of Halo where Gavin, once again, manages to use quarters over a measure of 17/16 before resolving to the 1 of the 3rd measure.

tZer said:
Since we're delving into complex meters - It took me a bit to comprehend this 9/8 (or is it 9/4?) groove by Paul Simon...
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That is a tough one, and I'd say it's more of a 9/8. The bassist seriously pushes the beat there, making it even more confusing.

If you guys want a serious mind boggler, check out Ron Jarzombek's (of Spastic Ink/Blotted Science) A Headache and a 64th 65/64... oh god.... He takes prog too far I find, making it seem downright unnecessary in so many ways, be it melody, harmony, complexity or rhythmically.

I spend way too much time with odd meters... :scowl:
 
#29
jmattbassplaya said:
9/4. The bottom number stands for how you count the meter. So a 4 on the bottom would be counted in quarter notes, 8 in 8th notes, 16 in 16th notes, etc... The top number represents how many of said notes are in each measure.
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Well, the top number represents the number of beats in a measure and the bottom represents the unit that gets counted as 1. So in 5/4, there are 5 beats in a bar and the quarter note is counted as 1. In 6/8, there are 6 beats in the bar and the eighth gets counted as one.

So - in the Paul Simon tune, I believe you are correct that it's 9/4 (not 9/8) because, as I loosely understand this, you cannot 'sub-divide' the overall phrase.

I believe an 8 in the unit would indicate that you could technically divide the count equally into smaller, equal sets. Like 6/8 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6] can be counted as 2 sets of 3/4. [1, 2, 3][2, 2, 3]

But 9/8 could be 3 sets of 3/4 [1, 2, 3][2, 2, 3][3, 2, 3]... but because of the lack of a distinctive accent pattern that denotes subdivisions, you have to count all the way to nine [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9][1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9] - there's no obvious, equal subdivision - hence, 9/4.

I think...
 
#32
9/8 or 9/4 are the same, it's just a question of whether you call the basic pulse an eighth note or a quarter note. The top number is significant, the bottom one really isn't. And neither of them can really tell you how to split things up (although other aspects of notation can give a clue).

John McLaughlin notated Celestial Terrestrial Commuters in 19/8 by the way. He could have used 19/16, not really a scrap of difference. From a notation point of view, there is no absolutely "correct" time signature for any piece of music, it's all down to convenience. You could write out Billie Jean in 11/8 if you wanted, but it would be a bugger to sight read. Your computer would play it perfectly, though.

From a real world point of view, then there is more often than not a definite pattern that should be reflected in the time signature top value, but the bottom value is really a matter of preference and ease of communication in most cases.

Anyway, back on topic...
 
#33
tZer said:
Like 6/8 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6] can be counted as 2 sets of 3/4. [1, 2, 3][2, 2, 3]
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I believe classically speaking the primary different between 6/8 and 3/4 is accents. 3/4 is 1 2 3 and six eight is 1 2 3 4 5 6. You were right in that they occupy the same amount of space and most non-classical musicians would understand it, if you got them mixed up you may find a classical musician plays it differently to how the composer intended it.

I'm not classically trained myself, but my dad corrected a score of mine because I'd made that mistake.
 
#34
bassybill said:
9/8 or 9/4 are the same, it's just a question of whether you call the basic pulse an eighth note or a quarter note. The top number is significant, the bottom one really isn't. And neither of them can really tell you how to split things up (although other aspects of notation can give a clue).

John McLaughlin notated Celestial Terrestrial Commuters in 19/8 by the way. He could have used 19/16, not really a scrap of difference.
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Thanks for that! He must have had the tempo way up there, wow!
 
#35
animvl said:
I believe classically speaking the primary different between 6/8 and 3/4 is accents. 3/4 is 1 2 3 and six eight is 1 2 3 4 5 6. You were right in that they occupy the same amount of space and most non-classical musicians would understand it, if you got them mixed up you may find a classical musician plays it differently to how the composer intended it.

I'm not classically trained myself, but my dad corrected a score of mine because I'd made that mistake.
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I think that holds true for both dividing it into 2 bars of 3/4 or 3 bars of 2/4 - it's that you can subdivide it evenly - and the accent pattern helps to identify how. One version is 'straight', the other 'swings'.

As Bassybill pointed out - technically you could just say "in 9" and have done with it - which would have avoided all this confusing discussion - but isn't the confusing discussion where the fun is?

Further, and again supporting Bassybill's comment - the importance isn't so much in the playing, it's a mechanism that makes writing it more convenient. Rather than having to fill the page with all sorts of barred 8ths/16ths - then having to resort to 32nd and 64ths when things get really fast, using a 4 as the unit opens up the option to use simple 8th and 16th notes for quicker phrases.

Using an 8 (or 16) in as the unit can save you from having to make a lot of 'triplet' based or dotted notations.

Look at Stevie Wonder's "Master Blaster" (in 12/8)

MN0075139.gif



Again... I think...
 
#39
tZer said:
Well, the top number represents the number of beats in a measure and the bottom represents the unit that gets counted as 1. So in 5/4, there are 5 beats in a bar and the quarter note is counted as 1. In 6/8, there are 6 beats in the bar and the eighth gets counted as one.

So - in the Paul Simon tune, I believe you are correct that it's 9/4 (not 9/8) because, as I loosely understand this, you cannot 'sub-divide' the overall phrase.

I believe an 8 in the unit would indicate that you could technically divide the count equally into smaller, equal sets. Like 6/8 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6] can be counted as 2 sets of 3/4. [1, 2, 3][2, 2, 3]

But 9/8 could be 3 sets of 3/4 [1, 2, 3][2, 2, 3][3, 2, 3]... but because of the lack of a distinctive accent pattern that denotes subdivisions, you have to count all the way to nine [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9][1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9] - there's no obvious, equal subdivision - hence, 9/4.

I think...
Click to expand...

Number of beats is definitely a better choice of wording than number of notes. My bad on that one :p
 

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