Is a DJ a musician

[Freddels]

They just aren't putting a record on and pushing play. They are manipulating it to the point that it does not resemble the source material.

Without someone else's recording what music are they creating?

 

[Alan Vorse]

Without someone else's recording what music are they creating?

They aren't playing other people's melodies or chord progressions verbatim though, its SONIC manipulation. Often the DJ latches on to 1 or 2 notes in a melody and manipulates it into something completely new.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Does buying some paint, a canvas, and some brushes make someone an artist?

If you buy them and begin to use them with artistic intent, then yes. Maybe not a skilled artist, or even a good one, but an artist nonetheless.

If I take one of your paintings and add some more paint to it, does that make me an artist? Am I original? Can I sell it and call it a painting by me? Was I just "sampling" your painting?

If you do it with artistic intent, then yes. Just look at Marcel Duchamp. One of the most celebrated artists of the 20th century, and one of his most famous works involved doing exactly what you said with the Mona Lisa. Most DJs aren't just adding a musical mustache to their work though Originality isn't any part of it.

Does an orchestral musician, who spends his entire life working on other people's music and replaying it, count as a musician? They're not playing anything original or creating anything.

Is a house painter an artist?

They can be if they do their work artistically, although I assume you mean taking the normal role of painting a house in a standard manner. Then again, those kinds of house painters aren't much different than some bass players who root note their way through life as the music they are told to play only involves that

 

[tZer]

Much of this debate seems to center around the fact that DJ's use samples and other musicians recordings to do their thing. The implication being that since there is other people's music being used as source material, the subsequent re-compilation of the fragments of the source cannot be considered new music.

Apply that same logic to programmers, artists, cooks, (fill in the blank) - all people who, in some way or another, use other people's work product to create new stuff. If everyone created their music/art/food from 100% self-created parts, there would be a whole lot less art/music/food in the world.

In keeping with the idea that it's not the tools, but the people using them that determines whether or not the end result is music, nor can the origin of the tones be the sole definer. If the person is taking the source material and manipulating it to create music, they are making music, ergo acting as a musician. I am not saying putting on someone else's song and letting it play, unmolested equates to being a musician. I am saying putting on someone else's song andthrough cutting, fading, scratching and mixing with other music, one can create new music.

In short - you cannot answer this question with a simple yes or no. Some DJ's, using the tools and source material common to performing as a DJ, do indeed create new and original music. Others fall short for a variety of reasons - none of which are that "they are DJ's". The reasons that some fall short of creating music are the same as the reasons that others fall short - because what they are doing does not result in making music - not because they use a turntable - or a hammer and nails - or a trashcan lid - or a plunger - or samples of other music - or car horns - or...

 

[Freddels]

For what it's worth, I don't consider Justin Timberlake or Britney Spears to be musicians either.

 

[giovabass]

Does buying some paint, a canvas, and some brushes make someone an artist? If I take one of your paintings and add some more paint to it, does that make me an artist? Am I original? Can I sell it and call it a painting by me? Was I just "sampling" your painting? Is a house painter an artist?

+1... this evening I''l take my mothers apple pie, i'll add some sugar so it is no more the exact same pie made by my mother, so i can sell it as it was done by me... And, yes, now i am a cook!

P.S. just kidding, don't wanna offend anyone Everybody has its opinion...

 

[giovabass]

now seriously... i've just tought that perhaps is just a matter of terms and functions. DJs have their territory, but i think that they can't be categorized together with bass/guitar/piano etc. players, singers, drummers, etc... they have to be a different category, perhaps the right term for them is something like "sonician" if you pass me that term. A "musician" for me has to do not only with "sounds" but expecially with harmony, like a guitar player, a bass player do, something that a DJ hasn't to do with. We can say that a drummer too hasn't to deal with harmony, but they have to deal with the rythm part of the musical theory... they heavily contribute and are necessary to the harmony made from the other musicians. Think what would be a funk or latin tune without any drummer or percussionist... it wouldn't make sense. A DJ has the "sonic" part of a musician. For me he/she is like a "human multieffect": has the "sound manipulation" thing like a musician would have - much more limited - with a pedalboard or a loopstation, but lacks the harmonic part of an instrument playing single notes or chords, and/or the complex rythm contribution thing that a drummer / percussionist would have. And dynamics and interplay too... can a DJ reach a deep and complex level of interplay with others that good musicians can reach, using just loops and scratches? Can he really make dynamics with a fixed loop or scratch sound? There are a lot of elements that make a musician... So for me all this makes DJs to be a different category from "musicians". They could be "sonicians" Of course i'm talking of the creative ones, not guys that simply reproduce iTunes playlists, those ones could be "reproducers"...

 

[Alan Vorse]

now seriously... i've just tought that perhaps is just a matter of terms and functions. DJs have their territory, but i think that they can't be categorized together with bass/guitar/piano etc. players, singers, drummers, etc... they have to be a different category, perhaps the right term for them is something like "sonician" if you pass me that term. A "musician" for me has to do not only with "sounds" but expecially with harmony, like a guitar player, a bass player do, something that a DJ hasn't to do with. We can say that a drummer too hasn't to deal with harmony, but they have to deal with the rythm part of the musical theory... they heavily contribute and are necessary to the harmony made from the other musicians. Think what would be a funk or latin tune without any drummer or percussionist... it wouldn't make sense. A DJ has the "sonic" part of a musician. For me he/she is like a "human multieffect": has the "sound manipulation" thing like a musician would have - much more limited - with a pedalboard or a loopstation, but lacks the harmonic part of an instrument playing single notes or chords, and/or the complex rythm contribution thing that a drummer / percussionist would have. So for me they could be "sonicians", instead of musicians Of course i'm talking of the creative ones, not guys that simply reproduce iTunes playlists, those ones are "reproducers"...

With a few exceptions such as polyphonics, most horn players can only play melodically. They can outline a harmony but its just one note at a time. As shown in this thread, there are examples of DJ's playing melodically.

I actually find it interesting when DJ's layer recordings that are in different keys. It makes for a whole new harmony that may be challenging at first, but ultimately is a unique new sound.

 

[giovabass]

As shown in this thread, there are examples of DJ's playing melodically.

That would be interesting... I confess that i didn't accurately read all the recent posts... are you talking about this?:

This guy is a musician too:

well, to be honest i strongly disagree with you... for me what this guy is doing has nothing to do with harmony or "playing melodically", he is doing what others mentioned before: reproducing little fragments of other's people music. It has nothing to do with composing, with notes or chords, in other terms with harmony and "playing melodically"... there are many comments on that video in youtube that are discussing on the same thing

 

[Vorago]

I really wonder how many here that claim that learning a 'real' instrument is so much harder have actually tried both.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

That would be interesting... I confess that i didn't accurately read all the recent posts... are you talking about this?:

well, to be honest i strongly disagree with you... for me what this guy is doing has nothing to do with harmony or "playing melodically", he is doing what others mentioned before: reproducing little fragments of other's people music. It has nothing to do with composing, with notes or chords, in other terms with harmony and "playing melodically"... there are many comments on that video in youtube that are discussing on the same thing

If you've never seen a DJ performing melodies, it may have been the case of you hearing them but not realizing he's making them. Check out this clip, particularly from 1:07 on:


He starts using a ribbon controller to create a melody part. It's a very common tool that has it's rhythmic counterpart in the scratching aspect of DJing. If you can change the pitch of a note or song part, then you can create a melody.

 

[Turock]

The correct answer is No.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

The correct answer is No.

Don't worry- we've all learned to dismiss you by now

 

[LHbassist]

You make this statement as if to say that all bass players, guitarists and drummers are actually proficient. There's documentary footage where Patti Smith's guitarist Lenny Kaye stated that the punk rock movement was all about getting a guitar on Monday and being up on stage on Friday. Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols was apparently shown what a barre chord looks like and told to move it around. What about all the grunge and nu-metal guitarists who tune their bottom 3 strings root-5th-root so they can play power chords with 1 finger? I guarantee that DJ's spend more time working on their instrument than theses "players" did.

These guys are considered by most as legends:

I did not state that which you have assumed in my post. I did not say or imply anywhere that simply picking up an instrument (a turntable is not, in my opinion a musical instrument) or 'studying' for a short time makes a 'player' proficient. Everybody starts out suckin', for lack of a better term. I knew some of the players on the rock and original late 1970's punk scene in New York City, where I'm from. I and other more seasoned musicians of that era looked at those you've mentioned much the same way that some look at dj's here in this thread, as non-musicians. I hated The Sex Pistols when I first heard them. Now, 31 years later, they don't evoke that feeling when I hear their recordings. I think they became famous because they had an audience that wanted to hear what they were saying, and didn't care about their lack of musicianship.
I will add this to make it clear, You can buy a musical instrument, study and practice, and still not have the TALENT necessary to be a musician. I still feel that talented musicians worth listening to have something to say, a traditional role to play, for example, as a bassist or soloist in a typical small group.
Art can encompass many different types of expression, all open to interpretation. I'm a traditional musician, and do keep an open mind, but I simply prefer to listen to what I consider music, made by musicians on traditional instruments. There's not a thing wrong with that. I also respect your and anyone else's right to say that a dj is a musician. My opinion is different, this is what makes the world go round.

 

[lawsonman]

Just the fact that this thread has lasted 12 days with 193 posts just plain blows me away.:scowl:

 

[Turock]

Just the fact that this thread has lasted 12 days with 193 posts just plain blows me away.:scowl:

That's partially my fault I guess. I should have reveled the correct answer a little sooner. I'm sure most people kept coming back to this thread wondering "when is Turock going to chime in and enlighten us?"

 

[giovabass]

The correct answer is No.

So I answered correctly, did i win something?

 

[giovabass]

If you've never seen a DJ performing melodies, it may have been the case of you hearing them but not realizing he's making them. Check out this clip, particularly from 1:07 on:


He starts using a ribbon controller to create a melody part. It's a very common tool that has it's rhythmic counterpart in the scratching aspect of DJing. If you can change the pitch of a note or song part, then you can create a melody.

That's nicer than the other vids that i've seen, at least he composed and played his own loop instead of using recorded material. The thing that doesn't convince me is that when he "improvises" on the ribbon controller it seems that he doesn't really choose the single notes that are played, but instead only tells the controller to go upper or lower in the register without a real control of the notes... the arpeggiator plays the correct notes, up or down as told by him with the ribbon controller. Well, perhaps the "musician" should be the arpeggiator but i agree to the fact that in comparison to the other vids this is a little more similar to what a musician would do.

 

[Alan Vorse]

This thread is going nowhere. The two sides are not really convincing each other.

For those who complained that DJ's are not composers:



Goodbye.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

That's nicer than the other vids that i've seen, at least he composed and played his own loop instead of using recorded material. The thing that doesn't convince me is that when he "improvises" on the ribbon controller it seems that he doesn't really choose the single notes that are played, but instead only tells the controller to go upper or lower in the register without a real control of the notes... the arpeggiator plays the correct notes, up or down as told by him with the ribbon controller. Well, perhaps the "musician" should be the arpeggiator but i agree to the fact that in comparison to the other vids this is a little more similar to what a musician would do.

Being that drummers, didgeridoo players, etc., are considered musicians and don't pick the notes they're playing either, I wouldn't say that's a factor. A good DJ can change the pitch, tempo, and rhythm of any sample or even a single note from a sample. They can create melody and rhythm- I'm not sure how someone would think they WEREN'T a musician. It's not as if we're creating or inventing the notes and chords we play either- any chord I play has been played before.