BUT they are composing decidedly new pieces of music with the instruments of choice. That makes them a musician, tho maybe not within the confines of your "comfort zone" definition.
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Is a DJ a musician
- Thread starter WarriorJoe7
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Wrong. It's more than beats and tempos. There are very often considerations to keys and melody.
Tell that to Andy Warhol.
Can most cats out there actually play a C# major scale, or read standard notation?
that's not the measure of a true musician. And " a purcusionist at best"? I don't mean to take this out of context, so exactly what does that mean? Purcusionists as I know them, are indeed musicians, and if in an orchestra, they are Pro musicians.I would agree that what scratchin and sampling DJ's do takes talent, but it is not being a musician, no way.
And as for DJ's just spinning tunes, being musicians in some way-only in their dreams.
It is in some way like rap. It takes talent, but is it singing? I think not. I liken it to beat poetry of the fifties and sixties, after you take out all the stuff that is just negative,denegrating, or downright filthy.
It would be like saying, are the chicks dancing next to Prince or someone else musicians? They may be when not dancing, but when they're shakin it as part of a musical act they are not the musicians.
JKT
And as for DJ's just spinning tunes, being musicians in some way-only in their dreams.
It is in some way like rap. It takes talent, but is it singing? I think not. I liken it to beat poetry of the fifties and sixties, after you take out all the stuff that is just negative,denegrating, or downright filthy.
It would be like saying, are the chicks dancing next to Prince or someone else musicians? They may be when not dancing, but when they're shakin it as part of a musical act they are not the musicians.
JKT
from Dictionary.com
composition:
1. the act of combining parts or elements to form a whole.
musician:
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
I think a DJ qualifies on both counts.
composition:
1. the act of combining parts or elements to form a whole.
musician:
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
I think a DJ qualifies on both counts.
I've played with Ableton Live, a program that allows you to sample, mix and manipulate on the fly - LIVE. It is clear that using a tool like that, one could easily create original music on the fly as a "DJ" by either sampling, manipulating and compiling sounds from the immediate environment or blending and mixing from a library of pre-existing samples. Further, being able to cull through pre-existing material and create librarys of beats, grooves, hits, flourishes, etc... then assemble them in a live situation - in real time - is no small task and requires the skills, instincts and talents of a musician.
As for the OP's question; I personally believe a DJ who does what I describe above is as much a musician as any other instrumental or vocal musician.
What it seems to come down to is whether or not you consider a sampler, turntable, laptop or other DJing tools to be musical instruments. I'd argue that any and all of the afore mentioned tools (and just about anything else that can be used to make noise) can indeed be musical instruments and can be either used well or badly. Determining whether or not a person is a musician based only on the tools they use and not how they use them makes as much sense as saying I am a plumber because I can use a plunger or a cook because I can work a toaster.
If this DJ you are referring to uses his instruments well and contributes positively to the resulting musical product, he is indeed a musician.
Further, and I know this is a dicey topic, but as for taking pre-existing music and re-purposing it as new music - that's how any and all music is created. It can be done well, it can be done poorly. Those who do it well demonstrate an understanding of the fundamental components of what has gone before and how to use them.
I believe that people who say they create 100% original music have way too high an opinion of themselves and are choosing to ignore centuries/millenniums of music and the musicians musicians who've gone before them. A song, per se, may have never existed in that form before, but the things that make up that song have.
What makes a guitar player who plays a I, IV, V progression today any different that a DJ who cuts together a I, IV, V progression from various recordings creating a new interpretation and a groove?
As for the OP's question; I personally believe a DJ who does what I describe above is as much a musician as any other instrumental or vocal musician.
What it seems to come down to is whether or not you consider a sampler, turntable, laptop or other DJing tools to be musical instruments. I'd argue that any and all of the afore mentioned tools (and just about anything else that can be used to make noise) can indeed be musical instruments and can be either used well or badly. Determining whether or not a person is a musician based only on the tools they use and not how they use them makes as much sense as saying I am a plumber because I can use a plunger or a cook because I can work a toaster.
If this DJ you are referring to uses his instruments well and contributes positively to the resulting musical product, he is indeed a musician.
Further, and I know this is a dicey topic, but as for taking pre-existing music and re-purposing it as new music - that's how any and all music is created. It can be done well, it can be done poorly. Those who do it well demonstrate an understanding of the fundamental components of what has gone before and how to use them.
I believe that people who say they create 100% original music have way too high an opinion of themselves and are choosing to ignore centuries/millenniums of music and the musicians musicians who've gone before them. A song, per se, may have never existed in that form before, but the things that make up that song have.
What makes a guitar player who plays a I, IV, V progression today any different that a DJ who cuts together a I, IV, V progression from various recordings creating a new interpretation and a groove?
According to Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionary":
Musician (n): a composer, conductor, or performer of music; esp. instrumentalist.
That covers a pretty broad definition, doesn't it, as there are probably many composers who can't play an instrument or instrumentalists who can't compose. If you're going to argue that a DJ can't be a musician, then you might as well argue that someone who reads music but can't improvise or compose is not really a musician either. The fact is a DJ's tools of the trade represent a new form music making beyond the traditional instruments used, and whether you consider it nothing more than a skill (I certainly can't do it), it falls under the definition of musician.
Anytime I hear this argument against DJs I point people in the direction of artists like Massive Attack. Robert Del Naja (aka 3D) is a former DJ who primarily uses computers to compose and arrange. AFAIK, he has no formal training and can not play an instrument or read music. IMO, Massive Attack has made some of the most compelling music I've ever heard over the past 20 years, and I would easily rank his skills as an arranger and composer with the best.
Musician (n): a composer, conductor, or performer of music; esp. instrumentalist.
That covers a pretty broad definition, doesn't it, as there are probably many composers who can't play an instrument or instrumentalists who can't compose. If you're going to argue that a DJ can't be a musician, then you might as well argue that someone who reads music but can't improvise or compose is not really a musician either. The fact is a DJ's tools of the trade represent a new form music making beyond the traditional instruments used, and whether you consider it nothing more than a skill (I certainly can't do it), it falls under the definition of musician.
Anytime I hear this argument against DJs I point people in the direction of artists like Massive Attack. Robert Del Naja (aka 3D) is a former DJ who primarily uses computers to compose and arrange. AFAIK, he has no formal training and can not play an instrument or read music. IMO, Massive Attack has made some of the most compelling music I've ever heard over the past 20 years, and I would easily rank his skills as an arranger and composer with the best.
And percussionists are not musicians? In fact, drummers can't play a scale and many can't read standard notation either, are they musicians? I'm surprised that as a bassist you have such a low view of your fellow rhythm gang.
Would you consider a keyboard player who uses midi patches a musician, then? They really just have a strong concept of rhythm, keys and know how to use pre-recorded midi sounds in a musical way... right?
Well, it seems like bassists are the only ones who think bassing is difficult. I guess it goes for dj'ing as well, some people think its easy, when im sure the dj'ers think otherwise.
A lot of different things: the chords the guitarist chooses to play the progression and how armonizes those chords, the sound, the "color", and the style he plays it. And to do it you have to know at least which notes to play for that chord, tecnique to play it with groove, and so on... If he plays with a swing feeling or with a latin feeling, or whatever rhythmic feel he plays it... all of this is composition and arrangement, just simply playing a I-IV-V. If I reproduce the same I-IV-V taken from a song of someone else recorded CD, I don't armonize, arrange, and give any rhythmic feel. I simply act like a CD player that reproduces the music that someone else's composed, arranged, etc. And I don't need to know the notes for the chords, if I have some little taste and some computer skill that's all...
Is a DJ a "musician"?
Well are the records they release "music"? I'd say so. Think of Norman Cook, ex Housemartins bassist now a DJ under the name Fatboy Slim, or Jesse F Keeler, bassist from Death From Above 1979 now a DJ under the name MSTRKRFT. I'd say their records now they're DJing are every bit as musical as when they were in bands.
Well are the records they release "music"? I'd say so. Think of Norman Cook, ex Housemartins bassist now a DJ under the name Fatboy Slim, or Jesse F Keeler, bassist from Death From Above 1979 now a DJ under the name MSTRKRFT. I'd say their records now they're DJing are every bit as musical as when they were in bands.
Well I assume this was directed at my comments so.....If you read my post you will see that nowhere did I claim that dj'ing was easy, or that playing bass was difficult. I simply compared the amount of time it takes to apply yourself to one and become good enough at it to perform. Well I'm sure that the skills required for dj'ing certainly present a learning curve, I would guess that it is hardly comparable to learning how to play an instrument (scales, notes, theory, and the actual physical interaction between those things and the instrument). That's all.
As far as I know, you don't need to know any of those things to actually play an instrument in a band. Just chords or simple notes and play in time and you're good to go. I study classical guitar at FIU, and will be graduating with a bachelors degree in performance in April, however, I'm not going to over romanticisize what I do when I step foot outside of the university. When I play in bands (I only play bass when I'm not in school) I really only need to know a few progressions. Any person with minimal training can get through a blues tune with no problem. They don't need to know about the dominant chord or about sub a ii where the IV goes...they just don't. Are they not musicians then?
I didn't say that you did have to know any of those things. Try reading the post again. I was comparing the amount of time it takes to learn how to play an instrument vs. dj'ing.
DJ's inject all sorts of personal interpretation - they harmonize samples, dissect rhythmic passages into new feels, manipulate time and temperament, insert drama by combining and manipulating samples and synthetic noise - and more. There's really no limit - with computers, synthesizers, and artistic interpretation, a DJ can be as musical and original in what they create as any other musician.
The idea that traditional instrumentalists playing only traditional instruments are the only ones capable of creating feel (swing, Latin, et al.) from pre-existing source material (chord progressions, rhythmic passages or samples) is too narrow and exclusive, in my opinion.
A guitar player can add a 9th to a chord in a progression and "personalize" it withing the context of that particular song - a DJ can blend another sample to a sample, pitch-shift and manipulating them and subsequently and create a brand new, original result within the context of a particular song.
Being able to extend chords and manipulate feel are not exclusive to traditional players of traditional instruments. On the contrary - a DJ can, and does manipulate the voicing, feel, and overall presentation of the musical source material at hand.
I get what you're saying, but still, the learning curve for any instrument is different for people. Playing the piano could take me a few weeks to feel comfortable to be able to play a piece, yet I'm sure that trying to come up with something that DJ Shadow, or Massive Attack, or Imogen heap, or Portishead come up with and make it sound like music is not as simple.
Yup - I think most people prefer Norman's original tunes as Fatboy Slim, over the Housemartins any day!!
Plus he has given a load of money to our local Football club - saw him there last week!
The amount of time it takes to learn a skill varies from person to person. This is true with DJ's, plumbers, clowns, etc... So the idea that it takes some people a long time to learn to play violin is irrelevant. Does that mean the prodigies who freakishly fall from the womb and are able to masterfully play Mozart are not musicians? For that matter, are you saying Mozart is not a musician? I believe he is credited with composing musical masterpieces at a very early age. Clearly if you must log years upon years of study and practice, he is not.
Like anything, DJing included, some will take to it very quickly and generate incredible music. Others may take years to get to the same place. While others will do only what it takes to make simple results and stop there.
I don't think spending an inordinate amount of time studying automatically differentiates one musician from another unless you are evaluating how quickly one person learns over the other.
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