Is it wrong for bass builders to charge for certain options?

[mstott25]

I don't mean huge corporations but the smaller outfits. It just doesn't seem quite right to me to charge for options like letfy basses of fretless basses. I know next to nothing about building basses but is a lefty really that more difficult to build? Is a fretless bass really any harder to design? My guy says no but who am I? I wanna hear what you guys have to say!

Wrong as in what, immoral?

This is an economics question. We all operate according to the same premise in economics, we all require some sort of incentive to get off our couches and do something with our lives.

Lefty and fretless basses are different than the majority of orders and therefore involve more effort. It's no different than any us of charging more money for a gig that requires us to walk three blocks with our gear rather than unload out front. Is it wrong to charge more? I think you're involving language more appropriate for ethical dilemmas and not financial/economic decisions. This is all rather unnecessary considering we are discussing options in a free market where any customer can make any decision they want without the threat of force or coercion or other unethical business practice (of which there are legion, yet none of which apply here).

 

[Kwesi]

Wrong as in what, immoral?

This is an economics question. We all operate according to the same premise in economics, we all require some sort of incentive to get off our couches and do something with our lives.

Lefty and fretless basses are different than the majority of orders and therefore involve more effort. It's no different than any us of charging more money for a gig that requires us to walk three blocks with our gear rather than unload out front. Is it wrong to charge more? I think you're involving language more appropriate for ethical dilemmas and not financial/economic decisions. This is all rather unnecessary considering we are discussing options in a free market where any customer can make any decision they want without the threat of force or coercion or other unethical business practice (of which there are legion, yet none of which apply here).

A very good point but to me it seems like charging for these options would be like charging more for a red car vs. a blue car of the exact same model and specs. I'm neither an expert on cars or bass building but that how it looks too me.

I might think a little differently if the up-charges for these features weren't so steep but from the builders I've seen that do it it's like $200 and up. That's pretty steep, imo. Luckily it seems like the practice is being phased out which is good.

 

[mstott25]

A very good point but to me it seems like charging for these options would be like charging more for a red car vs. a blue car of the exact same model and specs. I'm neither an expert on cars or bass building but that how it looks too me.

I might think a little differently if the up-charges for these features weren't so steep but from the builders I've seen that do it it's like $200 and up. That's pretty steep, imo. Luckily it seems like the practice is being phased out which is good.

I don't build basses or cars, but in my field of work I know what a pain in the neck it can be to deviate from the course. This is all just basic economics in a free market; in order for an exchange to take place where both parties are satisfied than they must both feel like they are better off after the exchange. There is no place for altruism or goodwill in a sustained and free economy, in the example you gave these builders obviously don't feel like it is worth their time or energy to offer the product(s) you mentioned at the same exchange rate as the other products.

As far as your example with cars you can easily see how limited your options are in that respect as well, red and blue are only two colors (which may or may not be offered for free).

 

[Gomeztool]

There is no "wrong" here. This is just freedom to pursue business. The builder is free to charge whatever he or she wishes while the buyers are free to patronize the builder or not.

 

[Mulebagger]

bottom line is if it costs more for the builder because of time, or setup etc.. I see no reason to complain about an up charge.

I think people pay more for special tops, electronics, and special features.
Check out the price of some of the gallery tops and finishes luthiers charge. It's pretty steep, but they have to make a living. If their basses are selling then I think the price is fair.

I wish I could buy a suit off the rack, but I always have to pay more to have it fitted. It's just life. If I happened to be built like the plastic dummy in the suit I'd be doin just fine.

Kwesi, if there were no blue cars, you can bet you'd be paying more for a blue one.
I think it all boils down to an economic supply/ demand thing.

 

[stepswork4me]

I think it all boils down to an economic supply/ demand thing.

+100. Welcome to Capitalism.

 

[scottbass]

My son is a lefty guitarist. His options under $800 are pretty much limited to one Epiphone SG, two Epiphone LP's, one MIM Strat, one MIM Tele, and a few Ibanez's. Plus a couple of SX's. Think of all the guitars that sell for less than $800 - that's a pretty small subset!

I understand the comments about supply and demand, capitalism, and all that. But I usually get angry any time Stuart Ball shares his "wisdom". The only real extra cost involved in making a lefty Stingray is stopping normal production to build lefties once a month or so. The stuff he spouts (assuming Jay Ralston quoted him accurately) about reversed parts is nonsense. Visualize a Stingray. The neck needs to have a mirror image headstock - there's no extra material costs for that, just stopping normal production for a short time to make a run of lefties on the CNC equipment. Same with the cutout and routing of the body. Lefty tuners cost no more. The nut is reversible. A Stingray pickguard is already a mirror image - no extra cost there. The pickup and electronics don't need reversing. The control plate is stamped, not "drawn and manufactured" - again, just a CNC setup issue, if that. A righty control plate might even work just fine as-is on a lefty - they seem to be about the same. The bridge works either way. The strap buttons or strap locks are the same. There's not much truth in the "greater part cost from our suppliers" pseudo-rationale. All that's involved is set-up costs for short runs of three CNC parts. If scheduled for once-a-month lefty runs, those extra costs should only amount to tens of dollars per instrument.

 

[Stilettoprefer]

Well, it was as akward as kissing your sister to play rt handed at first, but I got the hang of it and I'm really glad I did.

This made me actually LOL.

 

[Bigjohn]

It's a matter of economy of scale.
When you make larger batches of something, it gets cheaper.
And it's not like making a big batch of leftys and stocking them solves the problem either because there are costs associated with stock too.
Economy of scale and supply and demand.
More demand for RH instruments cause more supply which causes the price to go down.

 

[Bigjohn]

And welcome to nature.
It's just the way things work.

+100. Welcome to Capitalism.

 

[KingRazor]

The only parts I can think of that would be lefty only would be tuners and pickguard...everything else is interchangeable...

Also, if you build a bass with no pickguard and an even number of tuners on either side (ala Gibson, Ibanez, Spector, etc...) then all parts are interchangeable.

Edit: Other than the body and neck themselves, obviously. But again, if there's an even number of tuners on either side of the headstock...the neck could be interchangeable as well.

 

[standupbassman]

The only parts I can think of that would be lefty only would be tuners and pickguard...everything else is interchangeable...

Also, if you build a bass with no pickguard and an even number of tuners on either side (ala Gibson, Ibanez, Spector, etc...) then all parts are interchangeable.

Edit: Other than the body and neck themselves, obviously. But again, if there's an even number of tuners on either side of the headstock...the neck could be interchangeable as well.

All of the potentiometers would have to be flipped. Some pickups have the wires only coming out of one side and un-balanced windings. Bridges need to be assembled differently. Along with the body and pickguard and asymetrical necks being made differently.
That kinda leaves nothing but the nut, tuners and knobs being interchangeable.

While I don't think it's necessarilly right, i understand why it's done.

Still can't understand why fretless is an upcharge though...

 

[KingRazor]

All of the potentiometers would have to be flipped. Some pickups have the wires only coming out of one side and un-balanced windings. Bridges need to be assembled differently. Along with the body and pickguard and asymetrical necks being made differently.
That kinda leaves nothing but the nut, tuners and knobs being interchangeable.

While I don't think it's necessarilly right, i understand why it's done.

Still can't understand why fretless is an upcharge though...

Umm I'm pretty sure you can just flip the pickups around...

Why on Earth would the bridges need to be assembled differently? You could load a bridge with nothing but low B strings if you wanted...

I can understand the thing with asymmetrical necks, but they're not all that common.

So that's still just body, pickguard, tuners and pots on a large number of basses.

 

[Kwesi]

All of the potentiometers would have to be flipped. Some pickups have the wires only coming out of one side and un-balanced windings. Bridges need to be assembled differently. Along with the body and pickguard and asymetrical necks being made differently.
That kinda leaves nothing but the nut, tuners and knobs being interchangeable.

While I don't think it's necessarilly right, i understand why it's done.

Still can't understand why fretless is an upcharge though...

Pots rarely have any actual specific orientation pertaining to how they are installed on a lefty vs. righty bass. Pickup wire is usually more than long enough to accommodate the extra travel. I have never, ever seen a left handed bridge. And I assume that asymmetrical neck shapes are regardless of left vs. right hand would take the same amount of work. Already addressed bodies and pickguards in a previous post.

That said, I do believe that it's essentially a supply v. demand issue as opposed to one concerning the amount of work that would need to be done. That makes more sense to me.

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

It all depends on the manufacturers and what they put into each model.

Some may have parts that are interchangeable, and some don't.

As far as fretless is concerned. It may have something to do with the quality of wood used for the Fretless model. It will most likely be a higher quality piece of wood, less hair line grains in it, or treated differently than a fretted board. Also, in some cases, the piece of wood may be thicker than a fretted board. Not to mention any other size differences there may need to be / nut height and position, etc...

I would hope that a luthier would put more into an instrument than just switching out a specific part and leaving at that...

Switching out one part / option means adjusting everything else to work with that part.

 

[baskruit]

A very good point but to me it seems like charging for these options would be like charging more for a red car vs. a blue car of the exact same model and specs. I'm neither an expert on cars or bass building but that how it looks too me.

I might think a little differently if the up-charges for these features weren't so steep but from the builders I've seen that do it it's like $200 and up. That's pretty steep, imo. Luckily it seems like the practice is being phased out which is good.

Well, what if of the 100 cars only 3 cars are ordered in red. Buying red paint in small quantities costs extra, cleaning your spray paint gun so that it will actually spray red instead of purple paint costs (down)time and effort = money. Changing everything back to paint blue cars again = more money. That has to be paid by someone.

Do the 97 blue car buyers have to pay for the 3 buyers who want something different? 'Cause that's what it then comes down to: In the end the blue cars will cost extra to make up for losses on the red cars.

 

[mstott25]

I understand the comments about supply and demand, capitalism, and all that. But I usually get angry any time Stuart Ball shares his "wisdom". The only real extra cost involved in making a lefty Stingray is ...

I sure hate to speculate, but seeing as Sterling (is Stuart a nickname??) has done a stellar job with that company on many levels, I'd have to wonder why he would lie about the costs and labor involved in creating left handed instruments? It can no doubt be connected to some sort of deep seated hatred for left handed people.

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

You think car company's don't charge extra for paint? The difference is sometimes 500-1500 depending on the car manufacturer.

There is a different part number and different price for every car with every option...

 

[tjclem]

Having only built a few lefties I can say as a right handed player they are a real bitch to test drive. Because as a very small builder you get used to doing things in a certain way they did slow me down considerably. Just my opinion.

 

[unclejane]

I don't charge any extra for lefties, personally. I do charge a few bucks extra for fretless, simply because USACG does.

I'm still mystified by this a little myself. A lined "conversion" with inserts in the slots I can understand because that's a bit off the beaten path (you have to do inserts rather than frets). But an unlined would seem to me to be less work? Apart from the different dots or maybe a different fingerboard specifically for the FL model, seems like manufacturing it would actually be just as simple. Pull the neck before it goes into the slot cutter and you're done . Maybe it's the fingerboard dressing that has to be done?

But Carvin is the only company I know of that'll do unlined FL as a completely routine, no-cost option - one of the main reasons I went to Carvin and have never looked back. My L2K is unlined also, but even G&L I think charges a little for FL even unlined. I forgive them, tho, because the L2K is my other fanboi bass and if I had to replace it, I'd pay the upcharge for unlined....

Just seems strange to me.

LS