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Is it wrong for bass builders to charge for certain options?

Unlined fretless basses is another story... Although there's a few things that the builder/tech has to pay extra attention to, there's no actual reason for them to cost more money...

Except making sure that the fretboard is perfectly planed and doesn't have any dips that wouldn't be noticed on a fretboard with frets, or having to move the fret dots to a different location on the side of the neck (in other words--no different than your bridge saddle or reversed setup examples).
 
as a builder who has been 'lefty friendly' since I began building for profit in 2005, I think I can can share a few thoughts from my personal business model and experiences


- as a whole I do not charge an additional fee for lefty instruments. my manufacturing structure is that of a custom build shop, even for my production models. as such, each instrument is built to order.

I can see that a large company producting significant quantities of a part per batch needs to leverage tooling/engineering/re-tooling/etc ... across all of the units made in that batch. if the overhead labor rate to swap tooling is $250/hour and it takes 4 hours to certify the line is ready for the new part to be run, then you need to absorb that cost into the part unit cost, while also accounting for what could be considered as lost production time profits you didn't make while changing tooling.

even as I 'upgrade' my shop tooling to incorporate CNC, as a small shop I still won't have the same tooling scenario for the immediate future. this is because of the scale of my operation vs. the scale of a large company like Fender and others


- I do have to pass along any additional costs I incur for lefty specific parts. for my business and my model offerings, this is currently limited to

- reverse AT pots of various values. unless I'm asked to use a 'righty' pot on a lefty build, my philosophy is that pots should work correctly and that lefty players should not have to settle for pots that work backwards

- custom stainless 2, 3, and 4-hole control plates used on my VRB™ and Heritage Tribute™ models. I was forced to have custom '51 Tele P style control plates made as there is no lefty part available that was able to find. these were not cheap to have made in a small quantity (think less than 100 pieces per batch)

- since I make my own pickguards, I have no added costs outside of the initial template material and labor

I do charge more for a fretless, whether righty or lefty, but that's because my fretless boards are finished with epoxy as standard. this easily adds 8 extra hours of work (plus the cost of materials and two extra weeks of 'cure time') to a fretless vs. a simple fret job on a fretted instrument. a non-epoxied fingerboard option brings pricing in-line with a fretted unit, as there still is considerable detailing to get a fingerboard perfectly level that is beyond the simple effort needed to level frets


for CNC work, utilizing a simple 'mirror' was sufficient for the basic design geometry. it was not sufficient for developing all of the tool paths or tooling fixtures and hold-downs, as I chose to reuse as many of the alignment pins and vacuum clamping jigs as was possible. if I was paying for someone to do this, it would have easily doubled my design costs - and these would then have to be averaged into the per unit costs averaged over a couple years


from a wood perspective, I need to be aware that certain defect areas that would be outside the body area (and thus cut off) on a righty could be spot in the middle of the upper horn on a lefty. because of this I also grade all of my wood sets as righty/lefty/both. there's an added inventory management time for this ... insignificant for me with my build numbers, but something that could be significant for a company that builds countless thousands of instruments per year


so there you have it - the perspective of a custom builder who actually builds lefty basses. lefty instruments account for about 40% of my deliverables every year.

all the best,

R
 
Except making sure that the fretboard is perfectly planed and doesn't have any dips that wouldn't be noticed on a fretboard with frets, or having to move the fret dots to a different location on the side of the neck (in other words--no different than your bridge saddle or reversed setup examples).

Honestly...

Making sure the fretboard is perfectly planed and has no dips is something that should be done in every bass and failing to do so CAN AND WILL be noticed on a fretted bass...

Moving the dots to a different location takes A LOT less time than cutting slots, cutting, gluing, pressing, beveling, leveling, rounding and polishing frets, etc. etc. etc... And the builder is saving money because fretwire is not free...

Actually, if a builder decided to charge less for fretless instruments that'd be fair IMO...
 
True....fewer people want short scale necks but still, it's a big factory and I'm sure they make more than one neck at a time so they probably have some already made and just slap them on......I don't think they move the pick ups ( I maight be wrong on that) but from what I've heard the body remains the same (size, pup placement, bridge placement, etc)......

1. They make way fewer short scale necks

2. The bridge and pickups need to be relocated, unless of course they just slap short sale necks on bass bodies with no regard
 
I think the Ratly fellow laid it out pretty much on point. The realities of building a custom instrument are just that, custom. When you build necks specifically for people, it's a new thing everytime. One person wants a Jazz feel, the next one wants a warwick, the next one wants Asymmetrical, and the builder has to adapt to this, be it programming a CNC like Rodent, or knowing how to manipulate material removal, there is something specific that can always cost a little more, and sometimes less, it's a case by case basis in a real custom shop as opposed to a production shop.
 
Lots of chuckles in this thread. :p

Businesses can and should charge whatever they want to charge. There is no such thing as "fair" in a free market. If you think it's wrong or too expensive, DON'T BUY IT!

I don't see the logic in charging more for fretless. There is less material and labor involved in making a fretless neck, so why charge more? I have seen it the other way around though, were a company that builds mainly fretless basses charges extra for fretted necks. That makes more sense.

Actually, what makes sense in your scenario is that a company that makes more of one type (whether fretted or fretless) charges a higher price for the other, lesser-made type. Obviously!

I wear size 15 shoes. It's almost impossible for me to find shoes, and if I want a good selection of modern styles, guess what? THEY COST MORE! Duh! But do I cry and whine because the shoe manufacturers aren't making my size in every style, and available at the same price as "normal" sizes??

NO! I'm just happy that someone, ANYONE, was willing to take the risk and make a shoe I can wear! What if some "big brother" Fairness-In-Pricing Police told the shoe manufacturers how to price their shoes, and instead they just decided, nah, we just won't make odd-ball sizes??

Lefties should be happy that someone is willing to cater to their unusual needs. So what if it costs more? At least it's available.

Warwick charges over $200 to put a shotscale neck on their bolt on basses....all they have to do is screw in a different neck, why should that cost more?

1. They make way fewer short scale necks

2. The bridge and pickups need to be relocated, unless of course they just slap short sale necks on bass bodies with no regard

3. Because they want to charge more for it! Don't like it? Don't buy it! Simple!! :D
 
The thread highlights what many seem to take for granted, which is typically based on what they don't know or haven't really considered about the build process. Many didn't realize some parts that are required for some things or different processes. Tom came up with a very important but often overlooked one. As a builder, it helps if you can check out an instrument as far as playability. Not so easy when it's a flipped instrument.

IME I agree with Bassmonkeee on the importance leveling of a fretless vs. a fretted bass. My first large builder customer ordered fretless required leveling when I received it. It was supposedly up to their specs. I doubt the issue would've been noticeable had it been a fretted bass.

And in general charging more for a thing you do less often just makes sense. It can and often does require more time. Time is money, as hard as some may find that to believe. Now as a luthier you can give that time away or spread it out over your entire customer bass or you can charge what you feel to be fair. Nothing wrong with any of those tacts IMO. It's then up to the potential customer to decide worth. And I think charging extra for the "PITA/this is something I'd rather not do" factor is perfectly acceptable too. Or not charging.

It is kind of strange to be reading about larger builders when this thread is aimed at smaller ones.
 
Yes charging extra cash for Leftys (I'm one too) is the biggest mess that I've ever seen - and I just can't hear this 'oh, yes it's sooo hard to built a Lefty model..." anymore :rollno:

especially from the bigger companys (they have enough money and they could maybe do a little stock of 10-15 bodys from time to time etc. and use them when asked for. You could use the same Hardware like on the right handed models - tuners etc. are available by all the big companys for example

I believe what makes it "so complicated" is the fact that you can't just built the Bass (when it's built by some company that use a lot Handmade) with an everyday routine and have to keep in mind that it's a lefty and loose concentration and build it the right way :D - but like all the german luthiers here do say ...."ok yes it's a bit more work and it's hard for me to set it up perfectly before delivery because I can't play it - but it's handmade and it is not that important if I put the template on it the right or the left side ".....

The best example of anti-lefty is Fender .. I just can't understand why such a big company who also has thrown out many instrument lines that never established could not offer more leftys (like Fender Japan does for example) - I asked the Fender Custom Shop some month ago for a Lefty version of the Am.Deluxe 5 .... it's around 1690,- Euros for the righty here in germany... they wanted to have 5500,- Euros for it :spit::rollno: - I bought me an used Fender MIJ 5 String and it has a great B String and I just payed 700,- dollars :smug:

I just can't see why there are still companys in the USA and Canada that do charge 10-15% up for Leftys ... I will never ever buy a Bass with an Lefty upcharge anymore
 
There is a beautiful singlecut Stambaugh five that's been on consignment at a local store for several months at a very reasonable price. I have no doubt if it were a righty, even is this suckbutt economy, it would've been gone long ago.

Supply and demand. IMO it's just that basic. And if you're a big operation and you have to divert from doing your run of X,000 instruments to do a handful that may have far less demand, offsetting it somehow makes sense to me. Not that I don't feel what you're saying.
 
I was playing with the neck builder on warmoth and it costs an extra 35 bucks if you don't want dot inlays. That confuses me cuz it's less work for more money?

Is there absolutely anything extra involved in their process to accomplish that? Therein lies your answer.

People often think that if something has what appears to be less it should cost less, not cosidering the deviation from a standard process that might be involved.
 
MrWalker said:
This is an interesting discussion, and I guess the answer is what have been said a few times, the number of instruments made will affect the price in the end.

What puzzles me more, is that I have never in my entire life seen a trumpet player, tuba player, piano player, violin player, cello player, double bass player, saxophone player, etc., play "lefty". Somehow, all the left-handed people of the world who are playing other instruments than guitars and bass guitars, seem to be adjusting to the "tradition" of the instruments they play, rather than their "handiness." And correct me if I'm wrong, but... don't we use both hands? So why is it important at all?! And in reality, since the preferred hand should be the more accurate one, why don't we prefer to fret with that hand? Woudln't that actually give left-handed people an advantage, playing a so-called "right-handed" instrument?

Does left-handed people read from right to left? Do they dry themselves from the feet up after a shower? OK, so the last was kinda lame, but.... you get my point.

Sorry for derailing the topic. *lol*

But why left-handed in the first place, is my question? Just cause Hendrix hadn't studied violin before he picked up (and smashed) his Fender?

Well said. I've had this view for 25 years.

I'm lefty on a righty bass and proud of it. :)
 
I'm pretty sure I'm in an even smaller group, maybe a group of one. I'm right handed and originally played trumpet. The bassist in the first band I played in was a lefty. When he decided to stop playing I picked up his bass, a lefty Beatle bass copy and that's what I started on. So I was a righty playing lefty.

Eventually I got my own bass and started over on right handed instruments. It was pretty obvious there were a lot more choices available so it just made sense for me.
 
This is an interesting discussion, and I guess the answer is what have been said a few times, the number of instruments made will affect the price in the end.

What puzzles me more, is that I have never in my entire life seen a trumpet player, tuba player, piano player, violin player, cello player, double bass player, saxophone player, etc., play "lefty". Somehow, all the left-handed people of the world who are playing other instruments than guitars and bass guitars, seem to be adjusting to the "tradition" of the instruments they play, rather than their "handiness." And correct me if I'm wrong, but... don't we use both hands? So why is it important at all?! And in reality, since the preferred hand should be the more accurate one, why don't we prefer to fret with that hand? Woudln't that actually give left-handed people an advantage, playing a so-called "right-handed" instrument?

Does left-handed people read from right to left? Do they dry themselves from the feet up after a shower? OK, so the last was kinda lame, but.... you get my point.

Sorry for derailing the topic. *lol*

But why left-handed in the first place, is my question? Just cause Hendrix hadn't studied violin before he picked up (and smashed) his Fender?

You've never seen a left handed double bassist before? Take a look on the other side of the Talkbass forum, there's tons of them. I see jazz shows all the time with left handed upright players.
 
I think charging more for lefty basses is not necessary. If I was a lefty player, I would be infuriated with the lack of options and raised prices.


Kinda the same way with building a Ford vs Chevy engine. Sure the way everything bolts togeather is different but the technology is essentially the same. Aftermarket companies have been over charging us Ford guys for years so we are used to paying the extra and just assume its the way it is. Glad I don't build a lot of Mopar stuff. Even worse for those guys.

So I am sure that the bass companies figure "hell we have been doing it this long and getting away with it. WHy not keep doing it?"