Is my Ampeg PF-350 enough?

[Jables]

Hey, everybody—I’m hoping you guys can help me understand whether my new bass rig is enough for my needs. I’m relatively new to playing bass, and I’ve read through a bunch of the pinned FAQ threads up there, but I’m still having a hard time wrapping my brain around how the differences in wattage and impedance affect each other.

I’m currently playing a new Ampeg Portaflex 350 through an old Ampeg 4x10 cab (8 ohms, 200 watts max).

Over the summer I joined up with a punk-pop band (very Alkaline Trio influenced), taking over on bass so the other guy could become lead guitar. This is my first experience with a gigging band, and I’d been using the other guy’s rig to play shows—an old Peavey Mark III head (150w) through that Ampeg 4x10 cab.

This setup seemed plenty loud enough for shows, running alongside a Vox AC15 and a 50 Watt (tube) Marshall half-stack, but oddly it couldn’t seem to quite keep up in the practice space with the volume and gain cranked, and no matter how we tweaked the EQ.

At our last show, I ended up borrowing another band’s boutique rig (can’t remember the details) and was blown away by how much louder and better it sounded. I didn’t want to go back to the Peavey after that, so I went for the Ampeg PF-350—based on the price and the many positive reviews here on TB. I thought about getting the 500w version, but I don’t want to blow that 200w cab I’m using.

Here’s the dilemma—I ran the PF-350 through its paces at practice for the first time this week, and while it definitely sounded better and had a great punch, I still had to turn the volume nearly all the way up to hear myself. I hit the limiter (it cut out on me) twice. After adjusting the dials, I got optimal performance by setting the gain halfway up, boosting lows/highs on the EQ, and setting the volume almost all the way up. It sounded great, and it stopped clipping after that.

The other guys assure me that it’ll be fine for shows, and they have way more experience at this than I do, but…is it okay/normal to always run the with the volume knob full bore?

I know the 200w/8ohm cab isn’t ideal—will getting a better cab be a better solution than exchanging the PF-350 head for the PF-500? I’ll probably buy a new cab in the future anyway, but I can’t afford to right now or for the next few months.

I really don’t want the thing to cut out on me when I’m playing live, but I also don’t want to be worrying over nothing. And if I’m going to exchange the PF-350, I need to do so soon to be inside the 30 day return window (and to get in on that sale price they're offering).

Any advice you guys can give will be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[B-string]

You are most likely running into boundary interference in the practice room (it is most likely TOO loud in there). Playing gigs you should be fine, additional money would be better spent on a second like cab than a tiny increase in wattage. It takes a lot of watts to get louder and your current cab would just smoke with more power.

 

[tgriley62]

Adding more speakers will also get you more volume. Add another 8 ohm 410 and you should see a difference in volume

 

[Jables]

Okay, cool. Thanks!

(PS. I agree that we practice too loud, but so far I haven't been able to win that battle.)

 

[B-string]

Okay, cool. Thanks!

(PS. I agree that we practice too loud, but so far I haven't been able to win that battle.)

That is always a hard battle to win, get the guitar amps off the floor closer to the guitarists heads can help. Not a bad idea to use a 2X4 or tape roll under the front of your cab to angle your cab up away from your legs can help you as well.

 

[JimmyM]

I think eventually you will want to boost both your cab and your head to keep up with the guitarists. Both present some bottlenecks to getting stupid loud, and while the amp isn't the most critical factor working here, having headroom in a micro really helps getting to stupid loud levels cleanly. But you have to have a cab that can take it and you don't. The most pressing issue for you is your cab IMHO, but an 8 ohm 410 will still make you run your head all the way up, which is not the best idea if you want your gear to last a long time.

 

[StyleOverShow]

Lol-stupid loud levels cleanly

 

[Jim Carr]

Get a PF-800, or a used GK mb-800 after replacing your cabinet. Have you looked into DIY cabs? There is a lot of bang for the buck there.

 

[Fat Steve]

I run a PF 350 through an 4 ohm Eden 4X10, and it sits in the mix just fine in our band. I usually have the knobs set as such (settings are measured by clock reading):
Gain: 12:30
Bass: 12:30
Mid: 11:30
High: 9:00
Volume: Dimed

I never clip or hit the limiter, and the tone is fantastic. There's been a couple of times where I've had no PA support and had to power the room with just my rig, and in those cases the gain would go up to maybe 1:30 at the highest.

 

[hsech]

I think your band is practicing at too loud of a volume.

 

[GrumpiusMaximus]

I would be looking at raising the amps off the ground at practice and looking at where you're standing in the room. If the room has parallel walls, try putting your amp at an angle and away from the middle of the walls, towards one end or the other. Playing with the EQ will definitely help and I'd be trying to win the 'loudness' battle at practice. Quite simply, there is no need to practice at those levels.

I've been to quite a few gigs lately where the bassist was using a PF-500 with the matching cab in small venues with no PA support and the band sounded balanced without the need to crank everything up but maintained the energy that was needed. A PF-350 isn't much quieter! A PF-350 with a 4x10 should easily be adequate for band practice. It sounds like the band is too loud and you're having issues with the room.

As for long term advice re. the power of the amp/cab, I'll defer to others and their superior knowledge.

 

[lokikallas]

I use my pf35o with my avatar TB153 and I can assure you the pf350 can get crazy loud with a cab that can handle it. I crank my gain pretty high to get a bit of fur, but I've never needed to go past 3/4 on the volume to be heard with a ridiculously loud drummer and guitarist. (Yes I wear hearing protection) when I use the pf 350 with the second 153, things can get silly loud. I use the 7pro for gigs with no PA support, mostly so I don't need to crank the 350. I recommend getting a decent 410 like a svt410he used or a decent (non back line) GK 410. The hartke cabs are ok, too but not much better than a cheap peavey. What Ampeg 410 do you have.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

I agree with the above. Just remember that the PF 350 likes to have the gain cranked. If you don't have the gain LED blinking, you don't have it high enough. A PF 350 with a 4-10 can get very loud.

 

[b-b-b-bass]

I'm assuming that the OP has an Ampeg B-series B410HE, which IMO is not Ampeg's best effort for an 8-ohm 4x10.
That cab's sensitivity is only listed as 95dB. However, its evil twin, the B410HLF 400W 4-ohm 4x10 at 99dB sensitivity is a pretty decent cabinet.
The OP needs a cabinet with more sensitivity.

I do blues/rock bar gigs, and I run my PF-350 thru a DIY 8-ohm 1x12, or DIY 4-ohm 2x10, and I'm not allowed to even come anywhere near maximum output.
I've got efficient drivers in my boxes. So in other words, it's not your amp, it's your speaker(s), as other posters have responded.

 

[Jables]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone -- it's really helpful. I like the PF-350 a lot and I'm glad to hear it's not the problem.

The cab is, indeed, the B410HE. I'll start looking around for a good deal on something better. Even though I have to stay somewhat on the cheap for now, I don't consider this to be the only rig I'll ever own. Just need something that'll do the trick for a punk-pop bar band right now.

Lokikallas -- what do you mean by a "non back line" GK 410?

Is realistic to expect to find something good in the $300-350 price range?

 

[Jim Carr]

...Is realistic to expect to find something good in the $300-350 price range?

hmmm...maybe a used Eden or SWR 410. Those are nice but HEAVY—like ~100 lbs heavy. If you double your budget to ~$800, you are in the realm of used "almost anything." I once even found a superbly built fEARful 15/6/1 for $~800. That is a 410 killer, IME.

How about a 212 Gallien Krueger, a pair of PF-115lFs, or a 15/15/6/6?

 

[raventepes]

Take a look on Guitar Center's website in the used section. A lot of the time, they have some good priced Ampeg 410's. Of course, shipping won't be included in the price, but it might be worth a look? Also take a look at Reverb.com and Music Go Round.

 

[okcrum]

You're not getting 350W, more like 200, since your cab is 8 ohms. If you could find a similar 410 (also 8 ohms), then the amp will output the full 350W and you'll have one loud little set up. B-string's right that it's a boundary effect problem. Such a rig would just make things mushier at rehearsal. Turning down is the best (but possibly most difficult to pull off) answer.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

An extra cab gains you almost 3dB in terms of extra power output, and another 3dB in terms of speaker area, total 6dB. 3dB (solo) is 'a bit louder' and 6dB is 'a fair bit louder'. In the context of other instruments that are somewhat in the tonal spectrum, though, 6dB might make the bass suddenly seem to pop out psychoacoustically. Swapping to a more sensitive pair of 4x10s could gain you another 3dB which is approaching a total of 10dB or 'twice as loud' (it takes 10 times the acoustic energy to be twice as loud).

You said you've looked at EQ, but it might be worth looking at it again too. If you hear isolated tracks from famous recordings the guitar sounds can often seem very thin, but work in context. If you really thin the guitar sounds out more than the guitarists are happy in terms of solo sounds you might make enough room sonically for bass. It might also mean less muddy sounding guitar.

 

[fenderbassman40]

Just yesterday I upgraded from the 350 to the 500. I play through 2 svt 210av cabs for a rockabilly band. The 350 was no enough. It kept getting muddy and distorted. I've only played through the 500 for an hour or so but the extra headroom keeps my tone clean.