Is this appropriate? (Beginner/Intermediate using Fretless in Rock)

[ninjaaron]

If a great double bass player dies, people who praise him often use the word intonation.
That does not happen often with cello or violin players - for these guys it's not worth mentioning.
Intonation on bass is harder.

As someone who plays a bit of fretless and has also messed with violin, cello and upright -- to say nothing of having endured a lot of horrible amature string players -- I believe your conclusion to be entirely inaccurate. Particularly on violin, getting the proper intonation is much more difficult, in my experience.

The only saving grace is that you can sort of cover up the slop with a lot of vibrato.

 

[Bicycle147]

I have the impression when I read this story that we're talking about a highschool or college kid. I could be mistaken, but I sort of doubt picking up another bass on a whim was an option.

Funnily enough, this kid is seriously RICH.

I respected his "dive into it" approach, me and the vocalist had the same approach regarding many things. It's just that buying a cheap used fretless bass would have been the smart option. He'd routinely buy expensive pedals, at one point it seemed like once a week he would bring down a new modulation pedal. I guess me and the vocalist could have urged him to get a cheap fretless for rehearsal but we weren't factored into the decision. At one point we started bringing our fretted basses for him to play.

But yeah college age.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

You didn't buy a fretless Precision....You now have a IMPRECISION!

Actually, due to the nature of fretless bass, I find that I have to play with more precision...

 

[sean_on_bass]

As someone who plays a bit of fretless and has also messed with violin, cello and upright -- to say nothing of having endured a lot of horrible amature string players -- I believe your conclusion to be entirely inaccurate. Particularly on violin, getting the proper intonation is much more difficult, in my experience.

The only saving grace is that you can sort of cover up the slop with a lot of vibrato.

Not sure i agree with you there, i personally feel as the scale length of the neck shrinks, intonation becomes easier up to a certain point. Larger motions from note to note equals more room for error. It's pretty well known among string players of the massive inconvenience of doing just about anything on the upright bass compared to smaller stringed instruments. I'd be curious to hear your basis for what you are claiming, i'm no expert in all things strings but reckon you are not either.

 

[ninjaaron]

Not sure i agree with you there, i personally feel as the scale length of the neck shrinks, intonation becomes easier up to a certain point. Larger motions from note to note equals more room for error. It's pretty well known among string players of the massive inconvenience of doing just about anything on the upright bass compared to smaller stringed instruments. I'd be curious to hear your basis for what you are claiming, i'm no expert in all things strings but reckon you are not either.

I'm not an expert on all things strings!

Just my experience from having played a bit with violin, cello and DB. Cello was probably the easiest, double bass was only a little harder and I could never get anything that sounds remotely like music to come out of a violin.

It could easily be that my experience is not reflective of the norm.

 

[JoeWPgh]

I'm with Aaron. The shorter scale requires more pinpoint accuracy at the point of attack, ahead of any micosecond adjustment. And intonation becomes even more obvious as pitch climbs.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Still not buying it. Playing a 8th note line in tune with wide interval jumps is much harder on an upright bass than violin/cello. The bass requires the same pinpoint accuracy and is even harder to hear the pitch. It literally takes more time to move you hand from point A to point B due to the gigantic scale.

 

[vulturedog]

Haha funny story....
Back in the early 90’s I was in my early 20’s. I wanted a different bass sound so I bought a fretless with lines. (Washburn model) it was a decent bass though. Anyways I trade some other instruments and equipment and put money down. the next practice we are recording our originals for a demo to get gigs .... so I bust out my fretless bass with all my pride and arrogance...... tune it up...... then start laying my bass track....... the singer (acting as engineer) setting all the levels etc......he stops the recording and says “uhm... Hey ......... uhhhhh sounds like your out of tune!........ I check tuning again it’s good.......start to record again (it did sound off as hell when I was playing). stops shortly way through hey not good let’s use your other “fretted bass” and finished recording with out a hitch... took bass back to the store and complained intonation or the neck is bad or something.........they took the bass back checked it out called me it’s fine. Hmm I go to pick it up and the guy asked me have you played a fretless before? ... I said nope...
Ahh ha come here he plugs the bass in to and amp and begins to ask when you play a fretless make sure you finger on the line on the fret board to make the note! Boy was my bubble burst and felt like an idiot! Well to hide my embarrassment I quietly traded the bass away a short time later.

P.s. I finally bought another fretless years later it was a Mexican fender jazz. great price on it couldn’t pass it up also spent sometime watching YouTube videos on pointers to get it to sound good!

 

[vulturedog]

Thank god folks let me be in their bands when i started on upright bass. My poopie was questionable but i needed the band experience to refine it, and it happened pretty quickly. Of course i still have good and bad days on the instrument, nature of the beast.

My hat is off to anyone that can play an upright bass it is a monster to me that I could not slay! Lol

 

[ninjaaron]

The bass requires the same pinpoint accuracy

This is objectively false. The difference between "a couple millimeters off" on violin and DB is pretty big. The measurable distance of five cents off on DB might be more like a quarter-tone on violin. More stretching is involved on DB, that's for sure, but it absolutely doesn't requirely the same level of accuracy to get a decent sound.

For me personally, being more used to longer-scale instruments from the outset, this made DB doable (not that I'm an expert!) and violin so awful that I couldn't stand the sound of myself practicing.

 

[fdeck]

Still not buying it. Playing a 8th note line in tune with wide interval jumps is much harder on an upright bass than violin/cello. The bass requires the same pinpoint accuracy and is even harder to hear the pitch. It literally takes more time to move you hand from point A to point B due to the gigantic scale.

In my view, rather than saying easier or harder, I'd prefer to say that intonation on violin and DB involve some similar issues, and some different issues. Violin has the issue that the notes are physically close together, and you're expected to play more of them. Check out a video of Itzhak Perlman. His fingers are wider than a semitone! Yet he plays perfectly in tune. Like you say, bass involves big shifts, and maintaining your physical endurance throughout a gig. Each is hard in its own way.

I've played DB (my main instrument right now), cello, and fretless electric bass. My kids play violin and cello, and I've observed countless kids progress through the stages of instruction on all of the stringed instruments. In my view it takes roughly equal amounts of time for kids to achieve good intonation on any instrument. None of the stringed instruments in the youth symphony stand out as being particularly harder than the others to play in tune. If anything, the wind instruments might be harder.

Now, those are the kids who got into the youth symphony, which means they played their auditions in tune. The ones who didn't achieve good intonation, didn't make it to that level, and probably quit.

But there are factors that are more important than the instrument itself. The kids who play well sound like they are obsessed with intonation. Somebody has taught them how to work on improving their intonation, and they are making the effort. They just won't allow themselves to play out of tune. So they have to figure out how to make their instrument work for them. That's the key to developing intonation.

There are doubtlessly many approaches to intonation, and here's mine: If you hear that you're playing out of tune, it's too late. That's good feedback, but it can't be your primary way of finding notes. It's about technique. Consistent intonation requires consistent technique. This requires an idea of what "correct" technique consists of, i.e., what standard you're aiming for. When I notice that I'm playing a particular interval or passage out of tune, I carefully analyze my technique and figure out what I'm doing wrong. I still remember enough from my classical lessons to have a standard against which to judge my playing. I'm doing that constantly, even throughout a gig. And for me, technique is not just for intonation, but is also a matter of survival, because bass is a physical instrument and bad technique can hurt you.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

I'll add Tony Franklin as a player for whom fretless works rather well for rock.

When I started to learn fretless, I put all all other basses away for a couple of months. Now, I play fretless with my originals/progish band. It may not be the right bass for all our material, but it can work for a wide variety. Fretless also seems to require a more rigid practice schedule. Octave jumps and running scales everywhere on the neck in tune is definitely harder without frets. The bonus is the fretless practice makes playing fretted bass much easier.

YMMV

Thanks

 

[Chuck King]

Fretless basses are fun and there are some things you can do with them you can't do with frets, but, for rock, a fretless bass is absolutely an affectation. It's not necessary and just makes playing more complicated and harder than it needs to be. The fact that good players can (and do) get away with it doesn't change anything. Frankly I'd be suspicious of anybody who wanted to use, much less insisted on using, a fretless in a rock band, especially playing covers. Why insist on doing something the hard way?

I may be prejudiced based on my personal experience: on the occasions when I've seen somebody playing a fretless in a rock band it seems like they have sacrificed attack and tone for no benefit. Whenever I see the bassist for a rock band strap on a fretless, I cringe, and I'm still waiting to be pleasantly surprised. Again, that's my personal experience, which doesn't take in everybody with a fretless (or, notably, any of you, AFAIK). But it is my experience.

I know there are great rock records out there with fretless on them, and a great player on fretless can add a lot to a song, and I know fretless can be a gas to play and facilitates better playing etc. etc. I don't have one myself right now, but I have in the past, and I recently got an upright that I've been learning to play, and it is a fun but humbling process. But I have never seen, and can't imagine, any compelling reason to use one in a rock band, especially if one is not already adept at playing it.