Is this appropriate? (Beginner/Intermediate using Fretless in Rock)

[Quilbert]

No, just no. Chuck the fretless and get a good P bass. P Bass + Tube Amp = ROCK Let him twiddle away on the fretless on his own time.

 

[Medicine Man]

Well, if you suck you suck, but the fact of the matter is that you can't learn to intonate a fretless properly without playing with other people, imho. Woodshedding is great, but every fretless player has some "dark days" when first jumping in. My first gig on fretless was grim. If you have talent, musicians will stick by you when you make the jump. Sounds like this guy hasn't established himself enough for anyone to have the patience.

 

[Nev375]

Depends on how fast he learns.

Can't fault a guy for wanting to be better. I'd give anything to be friends with other musicians who had that kind of drive to improve.

 

[Sixgunn]

No, just no. Chuck the fretless and get a good P bass. P Bass + Tube Amp = ROCK Let him twiddle away on the fretless on his own time.

No. Just no to this!! First, fretless is not a "black art". Yes it requires a bit more attention. You have to be totally aware of where your fingers land and you have to have a discerning ear. If you have those (pretty necessary for fretted instruments, too), and you like what fretless has to offer you in your musical journey, go for it!! Oh! I have found that I'm equally adept at hitting wrong notes on fretted bass, too btw

 

[oldNewbie]

Another thing about intonation : It's not learned once, and then you are "good" at it, like scale patterns or arpeggios. Good intonation requires daily practice forever. Go ask a good player of any other instrument , of any age, when they stopped thinking about intonation and working on it daily. On average, my guess is they'll think about it a little less after 20 years of daily 1-2 hours on scales alone, but ~everyone~ warms up with intonation work in some sense. Pros on any instrument have played 6-12 hours a day since they were children, that time can't be short-cut. Once you start combining skills - learning a piece with specific fingerings , adding phrasing , intonation requirements add to the demands but are part of the package, and vary with each case . Once you start playing with others , you have to figure out how to adjust again. At the very least, you have to be sufficiently skilled at it to control it in the moment , and you don't learn how to do that in short order.

 

[DavC]

if something doesn't fit the band = remove it

it's not our place to judge someone else's musical journey

 

[Joe Nerve]

Original R&R, fretless in no problem IMO.

Covers and R&R, you'd best be able to make it unnoticeable, and you'd best have the OK of the others in the band. Without those 2 things...

No.

 

[ninjaaron]

If it’s preaching, it’s still the truth.

Sorry if I ruffled anybody’s feathers.

Most of my band experiences have been with semi-pro and pro musicians. And one thing I learned very quickly from those cats who can really play is if you want to stay in their band you’d better be ready with the goods and deliver on demand. If I ever showed up for a rehearsal with an instrument I couldn’t properly play, and I didn’t bring something I could play, I would’ve been shown the door in short order

Eh. I'm a Christian. When I shout "preach" at someone, I mean it as a good thing. I hate playing with people who think rehersal is a place to practice.

 

[40Hz]

Eh. I'm a Christian. When I should "preach" at someone, I mean it as a good thing. I hate playing with people who think rehersal is a place to practice.

Oh I didn’t mean you.

I got chided via email by someone I know who wanted to know how I reconciled my going all “School Marm” there when I’m always saying to encourage and tolerate beginners. I explained how I thought it was an entirely different scenario based on the info in the OP’s first post…and a rather “lively” discussion ensued - of which the forum here was mercifully spared.

FWIW me and my pal are still friends in the wake of it. Christmas y’know?

 

[Wisebass]

"masters of tuning and pitch."

The fretless player speaks: When something sounds weird everybody says it was the fretless bass ,

even when it was that Les Paul that doesn' t stays in tune for a whole song or that singer that can' t hold a note.

a lifelong pursuit at some point in time. he chose his time!

and he gave his bass the "Jaco treatment"

and that is !!!

sad story, fretless rocks


Wise(b)ass

 

[Nephilymbass]

Basically, long story short, I used to be the drummer for a while with this guy who is a decent bassist, can keep time, etc. But would likely be at the higher end of "beginner" to the low end of "intermediate" skill-wise. Lots of octaves, that type of thing. I think mentioning his skill level is necessary here. He was very curious about jazz, fusion, funk, like I am and we would discuss trying to add a bit of that spice to our music. (we were absolutely not at the level to truly spice the music up, our theoretical knowledge of these genres was pretty much nil out side of "use a lot of flat 7th for a funk feel". more of a "feel" thing. 16th swing on a funky part, or maybe a jazz swing feel on a hippy hoppy part)

At a certain point he got really optimistic and started buying books to learn jazz bass, wanted to broaden his horizons. We were really cool and excited with this. Until he ripped the frets off his bass. mind you, at this point, he would probably struggle with some of the advanced exercises on Studybass.com, so he was by no means Bootsy but he was improving. But me and the vocalist just thought it was asinine to just rip off your frets one day and assume you can just move on playing fretless in a band on day 1 with no training. We told him how we felt but he would disagree and continue on playing. His other bass had something wrong with it so if he wanted to go back to playing with frets he would have to get that one repaired or borrow a bass.

At this point there was noticeable dissonance often coming from the bass. I left the band soon after for unrelated reasons. I've always wanted to ask experienced bassists about this. I play bass myself and I think it'd be arrogant of me to grab a fretless tomorrow and start playing in a band without learning how to play it properly.

How ridiculous was this, if at all? I mean the kicker for us is that it actually caused dissonance, presumably because he would be a little flap or sharp sometimes due to him being new to the fretless.

When i got my first fretless I took it to band rehearsal that week and played it. I don’t get why so many people struggle picking up fretless. Granted I’m left handed and i play right handed so I have better control of my fretting hand. But I honestly think a lot of issue with folks playing fretless is lack of clarity or volume. If you can’t hear yourself well it can be rough. Sometimes I think arrogance can be an issue (for example those who say “I don’t need fretlines” when they obviously do)

 

[ninjaaron]

even when it was that Les Paul that doesn' t stays in tune for a whole song or that singer that can' t hold a note.

Don't even get me started. I'm mostly a guitar player and I hang out on TGP a bit. Not a day goes by where someone isn't complaining about how their gibson won't stay in tune. Most of the people are like "that's Gibson," and then the Gibson fanatics are like "Well I have no idea what you mean."

I'm pretty firmly in the "don't play an LP if you want to play in tune" camp.

There is a thread going today called Invalid Link Removed, trying to demonstrate that expecting an instrument to stay in tune is unrealistic and we should just cut Gibson some slack.

 

[jaymelewis]

Musicians practice. Bands do not practice. Bands rehearse.

100% this.

 

[leegreenman]

I’m assuming he has problems playing in tune on the fretless. Fretless can work in rock, but the player needs to be spot on pitch -wise otherwise it’s a disaster.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Today, I play upright in addition to fretless electric (and still cello too). In my view, intonation is never good enough. It's a lifelong pursuit. I listened to an interview of Ray Brown near the end of his life. They asked him if he still needed to practice, and what he was working on. He said: Intonation.

I'm another fretless bass + cello player, don't play upright bass these days as I find the scale too long. But like you say, intonation is never good enough. The only way to keep your intonation in is to practice every day, no matter how good you are or how long you've been playing.

 

[40Hz]

The fretless player speaks: When something sounds weird everybody says it was the fretless bass ,

even when it was that Les Paul that doesn' t stays in tune for a whole song or that singer that can' t hold a note.

Oh man! Ain’t that ever te truth.

 

[el murdoque]

If a great double bass player dies, people who praise him often use the word intonation.
That does not happen often with cello or violin players - for these guys it's not worth mentioning.
Intonation on bass is harder.

If a player pulls a stunt like this, I'm totally ok with it if it is not a working band with gigs scheduled for next week.
If on the first rehearsals he's off a bit - well that happens when you leave your frets at home. If he's not progressing fast and getting his parts nailed within a period, that slowly will start to annoy people, though.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

I bought a Fender Precision a few weeks ago. A fretless one. It don't get more precise than that

It's been years since I played fretless but back in the days I took my cheapo fretless to two different gigs due to circumstances. Band didn't complain and I played the gigs.

With my current fretless I started using it exclusively in my current band, because I want to. I'm not going to tell my drummer what cymbals or snare to use either.

I may join a Top 40 covers band next year. I intend to not play fretless in that band, unless specifically asked to do so.

I would have encouraged the guy in the Op to keep practicing. He was, as someone said, looking for his voice. If he'd shown up with a 5- or 6-string, would you have complained about that too?

 

[Kevin1960]

1. Musicians practice. Bands do not practice. Bands rehearse.

2. Practice is something you do - on your own time and mainly by yourself - to master your part of the band equation.

3. Rehearsal is when band members get together to coordinate and put the finishing touches on what each individual member mastered during their individual practice sessions.

4. If your bass player hasn’t mastered fretless playing sufficiently well enough to play with good intonation (which is the minimum requirement for playing a fretless instrument in a group) he needs more practice and should not be trying to play a fretless at a band rehearsal.

This is the best answer.
Pulling the frets out of his only functioning bass was a big mistake on his part and could have been resolved by buying a Squire VM fretless lined jazz bass for home practice until his ability improved for Jazz music.
You don't put the cart before the horse or expect it to work immediately.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

You don't put the cart before the horse or expect it to work immediately.

While I do agree with you, I will say this: my dad always told me to keep it simple and be humble and to not overreach. That advice turned out to be terrible.

Sure, I would have recommended pulling the frets out of the other bass instead. But this way, that guy did push himself; he was now forced to work with the fretless exclusively.