It's Now Time For Me To Record

[Violethill]

I'm now into the second year of my journey and I'm ready to start recording. I have a small dedicated studio/music room and have equipped to produce the sound I really wanted when I started: Fender J with flats (and a Fender Jag), a mint condition 1963 Ampeg N15A (gifted to me after being closeted for 60 years), a couple of Boss vintage pedals, a Peterson stomp tuner, a Keeley Bassist, and a Broughton High Pass filter to protect the amp. I practice two hours every day -- every day. This all produces the sound that is where I want to go. Now, I want to record myself. The sound that comes out of my amp is perfect, and I'm thinking that all I need to do is to mic it like I see on all those YouTube videos. I was thinking maybe a Shure B52A slightly offset from speaker center. But, then I read all of this about needing a DI, preamp, etc. Also, I do believe I understand that splitting my signal with one cable going into a DI and the other coming out of my mic is something to consider for blending the two (however that's done). And, looping my pedals (however that's done). But, any advice as to a simple start for recording (capturing) myself with the sound I like coming straight out of my Ampeg N15? In short, can't I just mic the speaker and go straight into my audio interface since I already have a tube amp? I'm learning everyday, and it's so exciting!

 

[silky smoove]

I was thinking maybe a Shure B52A slightly offset from speaker center.

Kick drum mics are often poor choices for bass cabinets. Most, including the Beta 52A, have a built-in frequency response curve that looks like a giant smiley face (lots of bottom, lots of upper mids, very little in between), which is rarely what you want for a bass guitar part. Start with just a DI. Once you've gotten that right you can look at adding a microphone to the cabinet which can be a considerably more complicated affair depending on the sonic qualities of the room, your mic choice, mic placement, etc. I'd recommend a larger diaphragm dynamic mic like an EV RE20 or a Shure SM7B if possible, but even a modest SM57 will work just fine, particularly when paired with a DI.

slightly offset from speaker center

Here's a couple of simple concepts to follow when determining placement:

• The center of the speaker is the most accurate to what it is actually producing, but since you don't listen to a bass cab with your ear against the speaker it may not reflect your sense experience of hearing it in the room. The further from the center you go in any direction the less accurate it will be to the speaker, and most notably the amount of high frequency content you'll capture.
• More on-axis is generally brighter, more off-axis is generally darker. Adjust to taste.
• Closer to the grill gives you less room sound, further from the room gives you more room sound. Adjust to taste while understanding that most bass captures tend to function best in a mix with less room sound than more.

 

[Violethill]

Thanks so much for that info! Yes, my brother suggested the SM57 and your seconding sounds the way to go (and less expensive). One thing: So, you're suggesting that even though my sound is sweet coming out of the amp, that I should get a DI anyway to: 1) Getting used to using a DI in general because it's good to have one for playing bass (I do plan on gigging or even having my own band in the near future despite my age of 66!); and 2) It helps "clean up" the signal. So, any suggestions for a DI box that will take me from early intermediate to whatever follows that? Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver DI, Radial Engineering Active J48, Rupert Neve? I don't think I can find or afford an Evil Twin, but I could probably get something priced in the middle if there's a quality upgrade from the basic. Again, I'm soaking it in.

 

[silky smoove]

It helps "clean up" the signal

It does not perform this function. All a DI does is get your signal into an XLR format, possibly with impedance adjustment from high to low if necessary, so that it's suitable for connection to a mic preamp like you'd find on a mixing console, an audio interface, an FOH split, etc.

The functional use of a DI in a recording application is to eliminate the sound of the speaker and the room since you're capturing the signal before it enters the room by way of a speaker cabinet. A speaker cabinet is effectively a big bandpass filter, and the room is a series of reflections which have various sonic implications.

A DI is very hard to get wrong, provides a full range signal, and eliminates the room from the equation. You may not like the sound of a DI on its own, particularly in isolation, but it's an invaluable tool to have and one that's dead simple to use.

So, any suggestions for a DI box that will take me from early intermediate to whatever follows that? Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver DI, Radial Engineering Active J48, Rupert Neve? I don't think I can find or afford an Evil Twin, but I could probably get something priced in the middle if there's a quality upgrade from the basic.

A BDDI is more of a preamp and overdrive that happens to have a DI built in. Radial is great, but be sure you actually want an active DI if you go with the J48 as opposed to a passive model like the JDI which tends to be the more common of the two. Neve is great as well, but I generally find people's reviews of them as being this magical tone-enhancing box to be completely overblown. It's just a nice DI. Nothing more. An Evil Twin is a mic preamp and a very nice one. It's also totally overkill for your needs. Depending on the audio interface you're using, you can likely just plug straight into the front and you'll have a perfectly serviceable DI ready to go.

 

[Violethill]

Wow, thanks so much for your expertise. My dedicated music room will be 12 feet long, 10 feet wide, and a tall ceiling at 12 feet. I'm going to put studio-quality acoustic panels on some of the wall space (probably an art to that, too). Finally, sorry to be a bother, but one last question (I promise!): I kind of like the specs and pricing of the Radial. Since both of my basses are passive, I should go with their active DI, right?

 

[silky smoove]

I'm going to put studio-quality acoustic panels on some of the wall space

Get in the space and start using it before adding acoustic treatments. You won't know what to treat until you use it and do some measurements. If you want to put something up beforehand just stick with vertical corner traps to address low end. That's almost always a guaranteed safe bet. Everything else should be done on an as-needed basis.

I kind of like the specs and pricing of the Radial. Since both of my basses are passive, I should go with their active DI, right?

The old adage is "use active DIs for passive basses, and passive DIs for active basses." I find that approach to be pretty reductive. A passive JDI works just fine with a passive P-Bass, for example, in many situations. Likely either will be fine. An active DI requires a power supply, a passive does not. A passive DI will have a 12:1 or maybe a 20:1 stepdown in output. If that's too much, get an active DI without the stepdown, then pair it with as electrically quiet of a power supply as you can manage for best results. The OEM power supply will likely be great if it's from Radial.

 

[JRA]

This all produces the sound that is where I want to go. Now, I want to record myself. The sound that comes out of my amp is perfect, and I'm thinking that all I need to do is to mic it like I see on all those YouTube videos.

tip: a DI will be less 'finicky' than trying to mic your perfect sound. some engineers swear by the technique of using both, but most go direct in most cases.

also: you'll have to make some ear/gear adjustments to hear similar sounds from your playback rig as you do from your bass amp: two different systems for two different purposes. you might want to get some experience hearing your bass via studio monitors and headphones before you spend any money --- the sound won't match the experience of hearing your amp, but you'll learn a lot about your own expectations.

good luck with your recordings!

 

[Violethill]

The old adage is "use active DIs for passive basses, and passive DIs for active basses." I find that approach to be pretty reductive. A passive JDI works just fine with a passive P-Bass, for example, in many situations. Likely either will be fine. An active DI requires a power supply, a passive does not. A passive DI will have a 12:1 or maybe a 20:1 stepdown in output. If that's too much, get an active DI without the stepdown, then pair it with as electrically quiet of a power supply as you can manage for best results. The OEM power supply will likely be great if it's from Radial.

I took at look at the passive JDI and liked it a lot -- especially the Jensen transformer and that it doesn't require a power supply. I think it's the best pick for me, and thanks for that reference. One last question: I have a Fender Jazz (my main) and a nice Fender Player J/P Jag (that I mostly use for the Precision pickup) -- both passive. When you say there is a "stepdown in output", do you mean that as a function of overall volume? I'd like to pull the trigger on the JDI but want to make sure that it will fit my short-term needs which, again, are mostly continuing to a minor mastery my instrument in my home studio (probably another year) and then easing into gigging (another year) before starting a band in two years (long track atmospheric psychedelic rock/jazz/world). Then, I can cross the bridge of more tech when I get there. Sound like a plan that the JDI will fit? Thanks so much for your DI input (please excuse the pun!).

 

[silky smoove]

When you say there is a "stepdown in output", do you mean that as a function of overall volume?

Yes. A passive DI with a 12:1 or 20:1 transformer will have a lower output at the XLR than an active DI or a 1:1 line isolator. This may or may not be a problem depending on the output of your bass. If you’re hitting anywhere in the ballpark of -18dbfs or higher at a point that the gain on the mic preamp you’re using, presumably in an audio interface, is not generating self noise then
you’re fine. Remember that a 24-bit digital audio environment has 144db of headroom above the noise floor. Even a 16-bit environment has 96db. I tend to treat -12dbfs as normal in my studio. If you’re below those levels than an active DI, a dedicated mic preamp, or a line isolator may be more appropriate.

 

[Krisfield]

I'd definitely mic the N15, and DI as well. Senn 412 is a good mic for bass. In the DAW you could Low Pass the DI and High Pass the mic'd signal. So you get the low end for the DI signal, and mids and high end for the mic'd signal.

 

[Violethill]

I'd definitely mic the N15, and DI as well. Senn 412 is a good mic for bass. In the DAW you could Low Pass the DI and High Pass the mic'd signal. So you get the low end for the DI signal, and mids and high end for the mic'd signal.

Yes, I agree it would be nice to mic the N15 and blend with the DI as needed. As for mics, I want to make sure I have it right. There is a modern Senn MD 421 and a vintage MD 412. I'm all about vintage sound, and wanted to make sure you were referring to the latter. Finally, do you have any opinion on the Radial passive versus the active for my rig? (Both passive: Fender J and Fender Jag J/P that I use mostly for the P). Is there enough headroom for the Radial passive, or would it be safer for someone at my lower intermediate (but aspiring!) level to go with the Radial active?

 

[Krisfield]

There are vintage 421's on Reverb for reasonable prices, most of them are in very good condition. I use a Radial J48 for my passive P Bass. Has a nice, clean DI sound. 421 + J48 is a great combo. I use a RME UCX II. Amazing piece of kit. Massive headroom. But you can still get a great sound from something like a Focusrite 2i2 imo. The DAW settings are Bit Depth 24bit, and Sample Rate 48kHz. Record at about -8db on the track level meter, then Bounce to -14 LUFS. I use iZotope Ozone on my Master Bus when bouncing the MP3 file. For me the key is to watch the level meters to avoid anything clipping for a clean sound.

Yes, I agree it would be nice to mic the N15 and blend with the DI as needed. As for mics, I want to make sure I have it right. There is a modern Senn MD 421 and a vintage MD 412. I'm all about vintage sound, and wanted to make sure you were referring to the latter. Finally, do you have any opinion on the Radial passive versus the active for my rig? (Both passive: Fender J and Fender Jag J/P that I use mostly for the P). Is there enough headroom for the Radial passive, or would it be safer for someone at my lower intermediate (but aspiring!) level to go with the Radial active?

 

[Violethill]

There are vintage 421's on Reverb for reasonable prices, most of them are in very good condition. I use a Radial J48 for my passive P Bass. Has a nice, clean DI sound. 421 + J48 is a great combo. I use a RME UCX II. Amazing piece of kit. Massive headroom. But you can still get a great sound from something like a Focusrite 2i2 imo. The DAW settings are Bit Depth 24bit, and Sample Rate 48kHz. Record at about -8db on the track level meter, then Bounce to -14 LUFS. I use iZotope Ozone on my Master Bus when bouncing the MP3 file. For me the key is to watch the level meters to avoid anything clipping for a clean sound.

Perfect! While the RME UCX II looks like a wicked piece of equipment, I think that will be my down-the-line upgrade. Instead, I decided to make my larger investment right now in the mic and found one (as you suggested) on Reverb -- a super nice vintage 1960s Senn MD 421 with the raised script logo. It must be close in age to my 1963 N15A. Can't wait to hear that sound! I also ordered the J48 and Focusrite 2i2 (both on Black Friday sales). This set up seems like a good starting point for me in learning how to record (and speak production jargon). Thanks so much! Violet

 

[Rick Penrose]

It does not perform this function. All a DI does is get your signal into an XLR format, possibly with impedance adjustment from high to low if necessary, so that it's suitable for connection to a mic preamp like you'd find on a mixing console, an audio interface, an FOH split, etc.

The functional use of a DI in a recording application is to eliminate the sound of the speaker and the room since you're capturing the signal before it enters the room by way of a speaker cabinet. A speaker cabinet is effectively a big bandpass filter, and the room is a series of reflections which have various sonic implications.

A DI is very hard to get wrong, provides a full range signal, and eliminates the room from the equation. You may not like the sound of a DI on its own, particularly in isolation, but it's an invaluable tool to have and one that's dead simple to use.


A BDDI is more of a preamp and overdrive that happens to have a DI built in. Radial is great, but be sure you actually want an active DI if you go with the J48 as opposed to a passive model like the JDI which tends to be the more common of the two. Neve is great as well, but I generally find people's reviews of them as being this magical tone-enhancing box to be completely overblown. It's just a nice DI. Nothing more. An Evil Twin is a mic preamp and a very nice one. It's also totally overkill for your needs. Depending on the audio interface you're using, you can likely just plug straight into the front and you'll have a perfectly serviceable DI ready to go.

I have always been confused about the utility of a DI. All of my bass preamps come with a direct out and my recording interface has an instrument specific plug so I can just plus my bass in directly and record. I have a DI that I never use because it just seems redundant. Maybe I just am missing something in the way I am thinking about this. Any group advice or insights would be great! Thanks all!

 

[Krisfield]

My approach would be to go 1/4" out of the bass preamp pedal and into the Hi Z of the audio interface.

If you wanna record just the bass either plug into the Hi Z, or use your DI and go XLR out of the DI and XLR into the audio interface.

I have always been confused about the utility of a DI. All of my bass preamps come with a direct out and my recording interface has an instrument specific plug so I can just plus my bass in directly and record. I have a DI that I never use because it just seems redundant. Maybe I just am missing something in the way I am thinking about this. Any group advice or insights would be great! Thanks all!

 

[brianrost]

Yes. A passive DI with a 12:1 or 20:1 transformer will have a lower output at the XLR than an active DI or a 1:1 line isolator.

Not all active DIs have a higher output. The ones I have used that are like this….Sadowsky and L.R. Baggs…are preamps marketed as preamp/DIs, the Sansamp BDDI is another one. Ones that are just DIs usually have a 10 to 20 dB level reduction, since the whole purpose is to reduce the hotter input signal down to mike level.

The pads on DIs are before the transformer or active buffer stage, so that the DI itself is not clipping due to hot inputs.

 

[brianrost]

I have always been confused about the utility of a DI. All of my bass preamps come with a direct out and my recording interface has an instrument specific plug so I can just plus my bass in directly and record.

In a case like yours, a DI is not needed, period. The high impedance input on the audio interface and the direct out of your preamp are all that is needed.

Why you may be handed a DI whether in a pro studio or onstage is that for long cable runs, the impedance conversion should be as close to the instrument as possible. As far as audio interfaces, the high impedance inputs are there for situations where the player is close to the interface. That is the case for most home recording.

 

[nitrateaudio]

great thead. all the recordings I did, the bass players just went into a DI and into the console. they used bass amp for live performance.

 

[Rick Penrose]

In a case like yours, a DI is not needed, period. The high impedance input on the audio interface and the direct out of your preamp are all that is needed.

Why you may be handed a DI whether in a pro studio or onstage is that for long cable runs, the impedance conversion should be as close to the instrument as possible. As far as audio interfaces, the high impedance inputs are there for situations where the player is close to the interface. That is the case for most home recording.

This is what I thought. Thanks for your input.

 

[nitrateaudio]

Not that I am recommending sims in this case. But one thing I do like about sims is you can play around and experiment with mic positioning and mics and even speakers and see what effect it may have on the sound in a virtual environment before you begin your journey.

https://g1.ikmultimedia.com/html/img/library/at5.10.4_20250326/ikc-L-AT5.10.4_GUI_20211004_CAB_rooms.jpg