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"J" pickups discussion and comparisons - PART II

#43
bigswifty1 said:
Matt, my Fralins are wired in parallel, with a push/pull on the volume pot to switch them into series, no problem at all.

Mine are definitely not the overwound ones acc to the box.

Mike
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, I guess each pickup only has two conductors and you wired both of the pickups together in series/parallel?

I know the Area J pickups have four conductors each, and each pickup can be wired in series/parallel by itself. Can this be done with the Fralins?

Thanks,

Matt
 
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#46
jonathanhughes said:
Too late! I already recorded some samples. I see you're in Toronto, so as a citizen of Buffalo, we'll consider this my small in helping to heal the lingering 200-year-old wounds of the war of 1812.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's a 99 American Jazz bass with DiMarzio Area J pickups. I didn't replace the pots or cap, so they're just whatever the stock ones are. I recorded through a Universal Audio LA-610 with the EQ flat and the compressor bypassed...
Click to expand...

Nice, thanks for that. Out of curiosity, what strings? And not that I believe all that much in tone wood being predictive of anything from bass to bass, but what's the body / fingerboard on your bass? I just bought a set of these pickups which should arrive in a few days. They'll be going in an '06 Std Jazz with an alder body, rosewood neck, and it'll probably start off with a fresh set of Roto nickel 66's.
 
#48
Just swapped out my Seymour Duncan Hot Jazz SC pickups vs Ultra Jazz humcanceling humbuckers

WOW... what a total neuter job! That SC aggression is toast especially at the bridge. The Hot Jazz were WAY better in the tone department in lows, mids & highs. These ultra jazz are pretty bland for lack of a better word. BUT they are dead silent & since my shielding sucks I'm happy to have em!

If you can shield well go SC. My Squier VM jazz was also wired FAR better for grounding than my early 90s MIM jazz. I may have to get the Hot Jazz SC pickups in the VM V bass.
 
#49
jonathanhughes said:
Maple neck, rosewood fingerboard, and I assume the body is Alder.

The strings are Fender 7150 pure nickel roundwound. I love those strings. They feel great (not super rough like some round wounds), and they have nice kids and, for lack of a better adjective, have a "chewy" sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

I got the Model J's installed in my 06 MIM. Haven't played any gigs yet with the band, just one rehearsal. So far they're a massive improvement over the stock 06 MIM ceramic pickups. Great low end, dead quiet, nice aggressive top end when I dig in with the Rotosound nickel 66's. Slap is actually something I want to do now on this bass (not really my thing, but it sounds freaking great!). I do find I'm missing the highs just a little, so I may experiment with some different strings. I think I've got some DR Fat Beams and some D'Addario's on hand. But it also means I get to play with knobs and switches on my amp in a new way.

I mainly play through a Shuttlemax 9.2 into a fEARful 12/6 or 15/6 and for the first time, I can use the mid contour and bright switches. I feel I NEED to use the bright switch, as they're a little shy in the shimmer. I never used the bright switch before, it just seemed to add harshness. For the first time, I actually like what the mid contour switch does. Before, it just sucked the life out of the thin tone of the stock pickups. Bonus- being able to solo the bridge pickup without massive hum and without the bottom end disappearing completely. I'm hearing a nice P thing with the neck pickup slightly forward (bridge rolled off a little) that I think I can actually use. So there's a much wider range of useful tone options with the Model Js in this bass. I've got a few gigs this week with a really good sound guy who's also a bass player. I look forward to his feedback. There's a big difference between how it sounds at home, how it sounds to me in front of my cab, and how it sounds out front in the mains. I'm thinking this bass is going to sit in the mix beautifully.
 
#50
Tunaman said:
Just swapped out my Seymour Duncan Hot Jazz SC pickups vs Ultra Jazz humcanceling humbuckers

...My Squier VM jazz was also wired FAR better for grounding than my early 90s MIM jazz. I may have to get the Hot Jazz SC pickups in the VM V bass.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean about the awesome shielding on the VMs. I just swapped a set of Duncan Designed VMV pickups into my 90's MIM Jazz 5. The pickups themselves are shielded - they've got copper shielding tape round the bobbin inside the pickup covers, grounded to the outer shield of shielded wire, which is grounded to the body of the bridge volume pot. The cavity of the VMV's (6.12 pound) maple body is shielded with conductive paint and ground leads soldered to the same grounding point on the pot.

My MIM jazz 5 on the other hand did not come with ANY shielding, not even on the underside of the pickguard. It now has a judicious amount of copper foil in it.

I kind of had to something about the MIM 5 pickups once I put the Model J's in the 4 string jazz. They look and sound to be about the same as ceramic design as the the 10 year or so newer 4 string ones I just replaced. I lived with them as long as I could. They're not terrible, but just a bit lifeless and boring. The J sound is there, but not enough of it in any way. They're a little thin sounding, especially when switching from the J4 with Model J's.

I knew the DD's sounded better in most ways, but just never bothered to try to swap them over. I've been searching for the right 5 string replacement - I've toyed with ordering a set of Nordstrands, Aeros, Duncan Hot jazz, and really like the sound samples of the SGD Jazzbuckers. I'd put model J's in it if Dimarzio made them in 5 string. After your (Tunaman's) comments about how great the DD's sound with the Audere preamp - AND their recommendation to use them with their preamp, I was almost ready to go that route. Trouble is, I hate batteries. I'm not going to route a battery box. I especially hate batteries that require a screwdriver to change. I don't want to add weight. I've been down that road (albeit, not with an Audere). If I can stick with passive, I'd much prefer to.

Well last night I got a wild hair and did the swap. There's no looking back. Wow. What a killer improvement. And it cost me what, an hour of my time and a 1/4" of solder? Even better. I love these pickups. Very ballsy and full. Great balance overall.

Funny off-topic story.. the VMV neck is on this bass too, so at this point, I've pretty much done a body swap. It's really a VMV with a lighter MIM alder body. The MIM 5 neck was jacked when I got it, broken truss rod nut, which I replaced. It resides on the maple VMV body (which now has no electronics, because I'm not super motivated to put the ceramic MIMs in an 11lb bass ). Neither cost me much. I got the VMV a couple years ago off Craigslist for $150. I got the MIM 5 for $100 because the seller didn't think the neck was salvageable.
 
#51
The VM5 rocks... my MIM J I'm thinking of parting out & just getting a Carvin PB4.

My policy- If it aint good enough to gig, it aint good enough to keep. The VM 5 I could get away with & bring to gigs as a backup that if it gets damaged\swiped... I'll live.
 
#52
I've got to bump this around as it is exactly how I feel.
For that matter, if the same materials were used why couldn't the Chinese make the same pup for much less. What makes American Duncans better than the imports? It can only be materials or assembly quality.

I have a few J basses; the 73 came with horrible pups and were changed to Model J's in the late 70's. It sounds nothing like a vintage Fender J bass but it is very cool and my main bass for many years.
These days I need a more full range tonality.
I have a 72" that has super low output pups but really sounds great; I just turn the amp up. It barely clips the front end of a 7-Pro with flat EQ and the input maxed.
When you tap on the body, the tone is different and more like a microphone.
Also have some Fender Lace Sensors that also sound clear and somewhat vintage and also have very low output.

Do most agree that that the vintage Fender tone PUP also has low output?


btglbass said:
No doubt you will want to hang me high from the yardarm after this, but here goes.

Looking at Jazz bass single coil pickups. Randomly picked examples.

Nordstrand NJ4 £140.
Lindy Fralin Jazz Bass £150
Tonerider Jazz plus £58.90

Nordstrand blurb:
Made with 60’s era correct Heavy Formvar wire and Alnico V magnets. In winding these pickups we use a simulated hand wound pattern.
Coil resistance ~8K

Lindy Fralin blurb:
Using ALNICO V magnets and 42 gauge Heavy Formvar wire, they are all hand wound to vintage specifications.
Coil resistance ~8K

Tonerider blurb:
High-Grade "Smooth-Top" Alnico V Pole pieces - no sharp edges!
42 gauge Heavy Formvar wire
All coils scatter wound on our 999-step CNC winding machines.
Coil resistance ~8K

The parameters from a pickup that matter are output voltage and frequency response.
The output voltage depends on the magnet dimensions and field strength, the wire diameter and number of turns on the coil. The frequency response depends on the inductance of the coil.

If the magnetic field is too strong, it will influence the string and reduce the sustain of the guitar. If it is to weak, the output level will be low.
So there is an optimum field strength to aim for.

The greater the number of turns on the coil, the greater the coil resistance, the higher the output voltage.
The greater the number of turns on the coil, the higher the inductance of the coil, reducing the high frequency response. A compromise between output and frequency response.
So there is an optimum number of turns to aim for.

Three makes of pickup, all with the same physical dimensions.
All use Alnico V pole pieces of the same diameter with similar field strengths.
All use 42 gauge wire with similar number of turns.
All use simulated hand wound patterns.

It is a basic electronic component, magnets and wire, a coil, no magic involved.

How much difference in sound could there possibly be?
Can one sound sweeter? How?
Could you tell the difference in a blind listening test?
Is this a case of the Emperors new clothes?

Different output levels? Doesn't matter, plug into an amp and adjust the gain.
Different frequency response? Doesn't matter, plug into an amp and adjust the tone controls.

So, you got to ask yourself, where's the best bang for your buck?
Click to expand...
 
#53
Artec makes a Jazz set with vintage correct materials (Alnico 5, formvar wire, scatter wind, ect) and construction techniques. Not the crappy one's you see on ebay. These are a little harder to track down for some reason. Made in China, cheap price.

My early '60's J pickups measure closer to 7k than 8k, yet have more audible output and sweeter tone than other original 60's pickups I have that measure closer to 9k. But those sound great in their own right too.

In the end it's the luck of the draw, imo.
 
#55
I have Aguilar AG-4J-HC's installed in a road worn jazz bass. Very nice pickups, a bit brighter than the vintage pickups I am used to. Bridge pickup will bark and burp, nice low mids out of the neck pickup. I am very pleased with the sound and they cut well in our live mix. Not exactly the same as a vintage jazz sound, but a very good sound nevertheless.
 
#56
btglbass said:
No doubt you will want to hang me high from the yardarm after this, but here goes.



Looking at Jazz bass single coil pickups. Randomly picked examples.



Nordstrand NJ4 £140.

Lindy Fralin Jazz Bass £150

Tonerider Jazz plus £58.90



Nordstrand blurb:

Made with 60’s era correct Heavy Formvar wire and Alnico V magnets. In winding these pickups we use a simulated hand wound pattern.

Coil resistance ~8K



Lindy Fralin blurb:

Using ALNICO V magnets and 42 gauge Heavy Formvar wire, they are all hand wound to vintage specifications.

Coil resistance ~8K



Tonerider blurb:

High-Grade "Smooth-Top" Alnico V Pole pieces - no sharp edges!

42 gauge Heavy Formvar wire

All coils scatter wound on our 999-step CNC winding machines.

Coil resistance ~8K



The parameters from a pickup that matter are output voltage and frequency response.

The output voltage depends on the magnet dimensions and field strength, the wire diameter and number of turns on the coil. The frequency response depends on the inductance of the coil.



If the magnetic field is too strong, it will influence the string and reduce the sustain of the guitar. If it is to weak, the output level will be low.

So there is an optimum field strength to aim for.



The greater the number of turns on the coil, the greater the coil resistance, the higher the output voltage.

The greater the number of turns on the coil, the higher the inductance of the coil, reducing the high frequency response. A compromise between output and frequency response.

So there is an optimum number of turns to aim for.



Three makes of pickup, all with the same physical dimensions.

All use Alnico V pole pieces of the same diameter with similar field strengths.

All use 42 gauge wire with similar number of turns.

All use simulated hand wound patterns.



It is a basic electronic component, magnets and wire, a coil, no magic involved.



How much difference in sound could there possibly be?

Can one sound sweeter? How?

Could you tell the difference in a blind listening test?

Is this a case of the Emperors new clothes?



Different output levels? Doesn't matter, plug into an amp and adjust the gain.

Different frequency response? Doesn't matter, plug into an amp and adjust the tone controls.



So, you got to ask yourself, where's the best bang for your buck?
Click to expand...


Thanks for this. It rings the bell for me. I do have a question. Do older pickups loose any effectiveness over time? I have an old 1970 fender jazz bass pickup i just installed in a bass i do some pick up experiments on. It sounds fine yo me ! actually it sounds great!
Just wondered if this is a real phenomena or not
 
#58
rberry7777 said:
Thanks for this. It rings the bell for me. I do have a question. Do older pickups loose any effectiveness over time? I have an old 1970 fender jazz bass pickup i just installed in a bass i do some pick up experiments on. It sounds fine yo me ! actually it sounds great!
Just wondered if this is a real phenomena or not
Click to expand...

I don't know if it is real or not. All I can tell you is my personal experience. I have a '69 jazz that I have owned since new. The pickups are dated 1968. I won't remove them to measure resistance as the solder joints are original. Output from this bass is pretty low. I usually have to turn the gain up vs. more modern basses. From what I can recall it seems as if this bass lost some of it's brightness over the years. Still sounds very good.
 
#59
very interesting thread.
what do you people are prefer?
hot pickups with high output? bass with high output from active preamp?
or low output pickups but clean sounding and more gain from amp/preamp?
myself, i prefer hot pickups with passive electronics.
i tried some pickups for jazz bass.
tried fenders (standard) and they are clean and nice sound but shy and weak.
tries SD sjb3 qp and hated them - big output bit no mids..
had SD spb2 hot vintage on parts jazz bass and loved them - and transfered then into MIM 70 classic jazz and love them there also. but the are less clean sounding the the fender. less sparkle..
on the parts jazz i installed Dimarzio model j and happy but they are humbuckers. they match the bright maple fingerboard (originally from squier VM jazz)
i dont have experience with other jazz pickups.
 
#60
rberry7777 said:
Thanks for this. It rings the bell for me. I do have a question. Do older pickups loose any effectiveness over time? I have an old 1970 fender jazz bass pickup i just installed in a bass i do some pick up experiments on. It sounds fine yo me ! actually it sounds great!
Just wondered if this is a real phenomena or not
Click to expand...


Effectiveness? Not sure exactly what you mean. Change, yes, wire can oxidize, magnets can lose some strength as the pole pieces wear and oxidize. But whether it is good change or bad is totally subjective. Higher and lower output is also fairly subjective and really depends on what you're running the bass into. Any actual change would be pretty hard to predict or qualify definitively, especially over many decades. Your hearing is more likely to change as your ears change shape and your sensitivity at higher frequencies diminishes. Also, there are a lot of other variables including the fact that the available strings won't be the same decade to decade, amps and speakers change, body, neck and fingerboards change, etc. Recording clarity has certainly changed over the last 40 years too. So do they wear out and stop working? Sure, if they're abused, soaked in beer, or lighter fluid and set on fire for the sake of rock and roll. But I think that it is less likely that they'll just progressively degrade to a point of uselessness due to age or normal use alone. If they sound good, rock on!
 
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