"J" pickups discussion and comparisons.

[mojacko]

MIM jazz have different pick up size than MIA/CIJ jazzbass,, isn't it ?

 

[Supertanker]

Here's the five string jazz pickup we've been waiting for.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/basslines/progressive-1/sj56770_sj57074/

I'm sure the 70's version can't be far behind...

 

[legendfield]

I'm curently stuck between p or j bass because of pickups,
I'll go for j only if seymour duncan quarter pounders for j are equal if not better then the ones for p bass
I need a proper comparison though to be sure maybe sound clips :/
I've always loved the pbass sound and pickups
But the jazz shape is waaaaay nicer
But I'm not up for going all out to mod build or create my own mark hoppus signature style bass

 

[TonyP-]

NJ4 60s wind A/B-ed against NJ4 70s wind?

With all this talk about 70's style Jazzes latly I'm not hearing to much about folks using 70s wind NJ4s with the enamel winding.

I'm digging the NJ4s a more then Dimarzos or the Fralins(not that those other 2 sound bad...Its just a preference thing).

 

[monkeybassist]

I just put the Dimarzios in my MIJ '62 RI. Between these and the stock pups I tried a set of Don Lace pups that the music store was dying to get rid of as they'd been taking up shelf space for years. The output was still too low for me on the Lace, and when I installed the Dimarzios and A/B'd through my pro tools I couldn't believe the difference volume-wise. Those Dimarzios are so hot, but as far as complexity of tone the Lace (and possibly even the originals) were more what I'm looking for. I think it's time to pony up for the Nordstrands.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I just put the Dimarzios in my MIJ '62 RI. Between these and the stock pups I tried a set of Don Lace pups that the music store was dying to get rid of as they'd been taking up shelf space for years. The output was still too low for me on the Lace, and when I installed the Dimarzios and A/B'd through my pro tools I couldn't believe the difference volume-wise. Those Dimarzios are so hot, but as far as complexity of tone the Lace (and possibly even the originals) were more what I'm looking for. I think it's time to pony up for the Nordstrands.

You've stumbled upon one of the truths about pickups. As you wind them hotter, the tone becomes less complex, and maybe more cartoonish, with exaggerated lows and upper mids.

The very wide range pickups are always low output, and require a preamp for the best output.

It's hard to get a hot output and an open tone in the same passive pickup.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

You've stumbled upon one of the truths about pickups. As you wind them hotter, the tone becomes less complex, and maybe more cartoonish, with exaggerated lows and upper mids.

The very wide range pickups are always low output, and require a preamp for the best output.

It's hard to get a hot output and an open tone in the same passive pickup.

I was under the impression that as you wind the pickups hotter, you get more low mids, and as a result the deep bass and upper mids are taken over.

 

[4Mal]

That would be my take on it. The hotter the pickup in a given form factor - the bigger that low mids bump gets. You correspondingly hear less real low end and less upper mid range detail. I've grown to despise that sound. Pretty strong word. One I rarely use ... I like David's use of the work 'cartoonish' there. Somewhat more polite than mine ...

My current fav's are the JBX4's from Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe. Very traditional sounding J pickup but very quiet. Full range, punchy, detailed and quiet. i have those in a 98 MIJ 62 Ri with TIJF's.

I flip flop on that set and a set of JBX4's wired as split coils. A little lower output, a little more low end. Kind of a J reaching towards a P tonally. Again very quiet. In a '94 MIJ 75 RI also with JF's.

I have a new franken that is about to get somehting else ... not sure what yet. Highway 1 body wth standard bridge, threaded barrels. Mity Mite "Licensed By Fender" neck. Thomastic Power bass rounds - Hey I like these strings. They are big and pretty stiff but they also allow for a real low setup as there is zero flop! Big time body for a round would too! Currently the stock Fender Highway 1 "vintage alnico's" are inthere. They aren't bad but definately not JBX4's. I'm thinking about taking that one to PJ.

Any good suggestions on a replacement pickguard for that ?

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I was under the impression that as you wind the pickups hotter, you get more low mids, and as a result the deep bass and upper mids are taken over.

Yes, you get more low mids, but you also get reduced highs, not just out of balance highs. The resonant peak gets lower, and the high frequency response starts to drop off right after that point. So then you get a clanky upper midrange. Think of something like a Duncan Quarter Pounder.

It's no longer a flat, uncolored response. And it then interacts with the passive electronics to produce a second order low pass filter. The higher the impedance of the pickup, the greater the effect of the passive circuit.

An example of that is the Gibson EB-0 sidewinder pickup, commonly known as the "mud bucker". When you wind each coil up to 10K, you get a very muddy pickup.

But that also has a lot to do with the inductance of the pickup, and the magnets.

Look at something like a Q-Tuner. You have a fair amount of wire on the coils, but they are air coils and don't have steel cores, so they are lower inductance, and you retain highs.

 

[4Mal]

An example of that is the Gibson EB-0 sidewinder pickup, commonly known as the "mud bucker". When you wind each coil up to 10K, you get a very muddy pickup.

But that also has a lot to do with the inductance of the pickup, and the magnets.

So with a Dark Star you have a magnet strong enough to mess with the compass in your car* and a pickup hot enough to broil your toast. That pickup has a wonderfully full range sense about it ... which is why I tend to append 'in a given form factor' to my observation.

So it seems to me - from a non-technical perspective - that it has to do with balance between the magnet and coil strengths and the area or maybe volume that they cover. Or rather - you can have hot and clear in a traditional design, but it takes space ...

*probably not actually but it is a real strong magnet!

 

[monkeybassist]

Ok I've found the solution to my pickup output problem. A guitarist buddy lent me a Seymour Duncan clean 'boost' pedal. I put the original pups back in my '93 Japanese '62 RI Jazz and with the higher output I'm way happier than I was with the Dimarzios. Anyone want a set of Dimarzios DP123 jazz pickups, let me know I'll trade you straight up for the Seymour Duncan pedal if you have it.

 

[BC8705]

This is kind of a double thread so bare in mind.

1. I have a 2005 MIA Jazz bass and though I do enjoy the sound of the stock pickups (I know most people don't), I've had my eye on Nordstrand NJ4's for a long time. Can anyone who put NJ4s on their MIA Fender Jazz (ones made before the 2008 changes) tell me how the two pickups compare/contrast in tonal quality (Bass, Treble, Midrange) and other sound qualities?

2. For those who have played real, vintage 1960's Fender Jazz Basses that were stock (pre-CBS preferably) tell me how those stock pickups sound in comparison/contrast to NJ4's?

Any help would be great because I'm having trouble making up my mind Thanks

PS I posted this as a thread earlier so my bad

 

[krueckschloss]

I installed the Nordstrand NJ5F (drop-in replacements for Fender 5-string) and I am very happy about the change. I like the bridge pickup much more than on the stocks and the both-up sound is more balanced in my ears. (I also installed the Stellartone ToneStyler which gives me even more control over my passive tone)

 

[Rockbobmel]

I tried to scroll through, the search won't let me see "CS" or "60's"

Smash, Have you tested the Fender CS 60's yet?


Thanks, Bob

 

[SMASH]

I tried to scroll through, the search won't let me see "CS" or "60's"

Smash, Have you tested the Fender CS 60's yet?


Thanks, Bob

Hi. I'm seldom on the site now, but by luck I just saw this post. Try searching on "CS60".

I did own a set and used them in a bass, but did not "test" them the way I did the ones I reviewed (same bass, stings, recorded, spectrum analyzer).

I agree with the consensus - warm, mellow, muted highs, a bit "phatter" than a standard J pickup.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Hi. I'm seldom on the site now, but by luck I just saw this post. Try searching on "CS60".

I did own a set and used them in a bass, but did not "test" them the way I did the ones I reviewed (same bass, stings, recorded, spectrum analyzer).

I agree with the consensus - warm, mellow, muted highs, a bit "phatter" than a standard J pickup.

Interesting, I found them rather grindy and growly with a mid emphasis. I didn't hear muted highs.

 

[SMASH]

Interesting, I found them rather grindy and growly with a mid emphasis. I didn't hear muted highs.

vs. stock J pickups?

I only tried these in one bass (SX) vs MIA J pickups, just by ear, and thought the highs were extended on the stock pickups and that they sounded thinner overall vs. the CS60. This presumes the bass actually had CS60 pickups, as I was told and have no reason to doubt, but I didn't buy them myself.

Gindy/growly/middy I don't necessarily disagree with. Just saying I thought they were warmer overall and with less in the highs where you'd hear string noise or fret clack coming through for example. Kinda, to me at least, the way a P bass is very middy and can be very growly depending on strings and pickup, but even then is usually warmer/muted in the highs vs. a typical J bass sound.

 

[SMASH]

Hey SMASH, I tried to PM you but your box is full. If this question has been asked, I apologize, I didn't have time to read through 19 pages of posts.

Thanks a million for all that information. As I am in the process of switching over from P Basses to J Basses, I can use all the help I can get. I have acquired several J's and I am purchasing and building several more. I am totally hooked!

I was curious about your playing style, so that I can put your comments into perspective. Several times you refer to "your tone" so these are obviously somewhat subjective reviews. Maybe you can tell me what "your tone" consists of, what styles you play, are you a pick, pop, or finger player, etc. I know that many slap n poppers (like me) prefer the EMG active series, and you sorta downgraded them. So any information you can provide about your preferred tone, music style, or playing style would be most helpful. Thanks again!

I play fingerstyle, with a little slap/pop. Situations vary from backing a top-40 pop singer, to covers of funk & reggae in pubs, to basement stoner/doom. I generally like a thick tone with strong lows, a wide-range punch, organic mids (which to me means some inherent grind), and not terribly "zingy" (so to me the EMG's didn't satisfy in the mids or due to their highs).

Some will say the tone I am biased towards is not much like J bass, and I wouldn't argue. I think my bias came through in the reviews, but more than anything I wanted to note the essential sonic differences of a variety of pickups which would be evident regardless of most other variables. I didn't envision it taking on such a life of its own, or set out to be comprehensive - I'm missing too many brands to list, especially given how much time has passed. It got a good dialogue going though, and I'm thankful to have been of any use and to have kicked-off this ongoing discussion and exchange of opinions and experiences. Others have taken it much further than I did, which is great.

I only strive to vary tones signficantly when recording, more so because I think an entire band should strive not to bore the listener sonically tune after tune rather than any dogma about a given tone for a given style. Beyond that, playing live, I can use radically different sounding basses for any gig/style I play and I tend to stick with one bass for months at a time no matter what gig I'm on that night. I'm not terribly skilled, but I know what my right hand and the tone knobs are for.


Caveats worth repeating (for the general readers, not you specifically Electracoyote) :

1. strings and setup make a HUGE difference. Some differences between pickups are exacerbated, while others almost disappear or some new variances emerge, depending on a variety of factors. Unless the strings and proper setup (distance between string and pickup) are complimentary, an exceptional bottom end (as in the Antiquity II for example) might not be so obvious. In other cases, pickups that are somewhat radical (vs. stock/typical J pickups) such as the Model J's might be just right for some setups and overwhelming for others especially once the amp/rig/room/mix are in play.

2. the majority of the differences aren't really audible once the amp/rig/room/mix are factored. To the player, maybe, but not in the grand scheme of things or from the audience perspective. The bottom line is that if anyone wants to sound better - even tonally - they need to spend money on lessons and spend time on practice, not on gear and tinkering. Me very much included.

3. factoring preamps makes it even more random. Most preamps have stock voicings, some very radical, even when set "flat".

4. "Trust your ears" is rubbish if your ears don't have a clue what they're hearing. Check out some optical illusions, and consider that hearing is really the same. Or compare the lows on a P vs. a J vs. a J in series on a spectrum analyzer and most people will be quite surprised at what is really there vs. what they *think* they are hearing.

6. for anyone wanting to make a real change in tone on a bass, know that the easiest and cheapest thing is series/parallel. That's the ticket if you just want to make a J bass seem richer/fatter in tone. Next, or in addition, comes strings. Both very cheap options vs. a different bass, pickups or preamps, that can and often will yield radically different tones. In fact, series is free to affect depending how you do it. The next step is pickups after which there are extremely diminishing returns in change.

7. anyone more into subtleties like staggered windings and different impedances on a given model of pickup, etc. are much better off engaging someone like Narud. He's a very straight-shooter, 100 times the player I'll ever be, and has an ear and regard for subtleties that aren't part of what I'm personally into. I'm more "big picture" and writing for the same kind of audience - can I hear it in a mix with two guitars with full stacks? or can I hear it in a live recording of the band going through a PA?

8. tastes change. From years ago when I wrote the initial reviews, I'm now much more often a 6-string player, with lots of chording up high, than a low-end deweller on the 4-string. As you can imagine, the sound and tone I dig for 6-string ain't the same as what I go for on 4-string.


OK, going back on hiatus now ...

 

[TonyP-]

NJ4 60s wind A/B-ed against NJ4 70s wind?

With all this talk about 70's style Jazzes latly I'm not hearing to much about folks using 70s wind NJ4s with the enamel winding.

I'm digging the NJ4s a more then Dimarzos or the Fralins(not that those other 2 sound bad...Its just a preference thing).

70s wind
I installed a set and here are my thoughts.

Ok well I have gotten a chance to in install on a bass that is very close to what I installed a set of 60's on.
(Alder bodies, same brand of strings, both with Auderes).

I have to say its most certainly a different tone then the 60s wind but not radically far away either. The same Nordstrand string balance and evenness is still there but I have to say that there is a more of open sound so to speak.

Its like the slight growl that comes from the original NJ4s mids decided to move its focal point a bit more to the highs and it complemented this with wider (but not necessarily deeper) low end.


Just my $.02

 

[thehangingmist]

do split coil J pickups sound somewhat similar to P pickups??